It's inconvenient and not that intuitive at times

[Rongor]

I guess these are mostly noob issues - if not, feel free to comment...

 

Currently I am learning all the A/G stuff and it gets surprisingly confusing quickly.

 

1. Preparing JDAM runs, I got coordinates from the F10 map. Created a waypoint to store these coordinates. Format was DEG°MM.MMM'.

- Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a possibility to directly "copy" waypoint data to the JDAM mission data or even just assign a waypoint to a mission.

- So I had to put up the waypoint data into one DDI, the stores/JDAM mission editor into the other DDI and write those data of the waypoint into the PP mission.

- sadly the PP mission data seems to accept only DEG°MM'SS", so I had to recalculate it on the fly -.-

- Yes I could have slaved the TGP to the waypoint and "copied" the TGP target into a TOO mission but that isn't the point of PP right? Let's assume there was no TGP available. Yes, I hear you, maybe entering PP data during a flight is also not the point of PP? I don't know. Let's assume I received target data from a JTAC or the command center.

 

2. After preparing everything, the correct target coordinates were way off the game world coordinates. Maybe caused by starting in a slot already in the air. Alignment update was all set ok though, maybe there is some bug as I was at max 1 hour flying and this probably shouldn't put an GNS/INS off for 3 miles...

 

3. At another time I slaved my TGP to the current waypoint by boxing the waypoint in my HSI DDI page. It's still inconclusive to me if I really have to WPDSG that waypoint also. When I did, I then had the TGP where I wanted it and started to slew around the TGP view. This way I found a location worth to be a new waypoint.

- So I intended to select a new (clean) waypoint in the HSI data page. Of course, the moment I cycled the waypoints ahead, the TGP broke LOS to my desired point of interest and it was gone with the wind...

 

4. In the A/G radar DDI page, you designate targets with an additional push of the sensor switch towards that DDI, in A/A mode, you use press the TDC for this. While pressing the TDC designates EXP areas in the A/G mode. Why not keeping the same meaning of the TDC in both modes? Being a retired aviator, I am used to avionics always trying to avoid confusion for the pilot. Mixing up the meaning of a rather important button press seems entirely unnecessary (why not also using the sensor switch for targeting in the A/A modes, moving the AACQ elsewhere of course, or using the TDC press as designator in the A/G mode?)

 

5. speaking of confusing avionics, when we are used to return to main menus by pressing RET OSBs, how can one come up with the idea to name the CBU in the stores page "RET"? I wondered why my JDAM wasn't released (Auto release/CCRP) and was surprised to realize I had selected a CBU instead of RETurning from the JDAM data in that very same stores page.

 

That's all for this afternoon...

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Rongor
typos, as always

[Recluse]

1. On the F10 Map, ALT-Y toggles the different coordinate systems. Yes it is a pain that different actions require different coordinate systems.

 

2. Haven't seen this. Entry error? Calculation Error?

 

3. YES you must also BOX WPDESG and the WPT indicator will turn into a TGT label. Boxing WPT just displays WPT info. To make a Target you have to WPDESG.

 

4. In AG MAP mode you can use TDC to designate a point on the MAP for SEA/GMT mode you use the SSS in the direction of the DDI

 

5. Weapon labels are sometimes confusing. You just have to learn them. MOST are self-explanatory. The CBU example is NOT.  The RETURN option, however is RTN if I recall correctly so no conflict.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Recluse

[Tholozor]

The Mk-20 Rockeye CBU is labeled as 'RE' for Rockeye. The CBU-99 is a Rockeye with a thermally-insulated coating to protect itself from fire cook-off when stored on a ship. 'RET' meaning Rockeye, Thermally-protected.

[SFJackBauer]

I feel your pains but thats also the price of having a full fidelity simulator. In real life also navigation and coordinates are not easy stuff. Some games in the past abstracted this by presenting you always with 100% accurate information, but that is simply not realistic.

[Recluse]

41 minutes ago, Tholozor said:

The Mk-20 Rockeye CBU is labeled as 'RE' for Rockeye. The CBU-99 is a Rockeye with a thermally-insulated coating to protect itself from fire cook-off when stored on a ship. 'RET' meaning Rockeye, Thermally-protected.

Thanks for that!! I guessed it had something to do with it being a RE variant but I didn't know the T was for Thermally Protected!

[Frederf]

1. Pre-planned (PP) is always numerical entry. Normally this would have been done on a desktop computer, loaded into a data cartridge, but of course it can be done manually as DCS users do. The point of PP is the what it stands for, the planning happens way before the pilot enters the airplane. A lot of the value also comes from multi-targeting where you find a launch point which is in the overlap of the LARs for each weapon. With a LP programmed that's what you fly to release from there.

 

2. Something went wrong if that happened.

 

3. You can edit waypoints without changing currently selected waypoint.

 

4. TDC depress and SSS do different things with regards to radar. TDC depress designates the item below the cursor while SSS commands object track. MAP, GMT, and SEA all have distinct responses to TDCd and SSS.

 

 

[Bunny Clark]

6 hours ago, Rongor said:

- Yes I could have slaved the TGP to the waypoint and "copied" the TGP target into a TOO mission but that isn't the point of PP right? Let's assume there was no TGP available. Yes, I hear you, maybe entering PP data during a flight is also not the point of PP? I don't know. Let's assume I received target data from a JTAC or the command center.

As Frederf mentioned, PP really doesn't have a lot of use in DCS right now. PP targets are something that would be set up in mission planning hours or days before stepping into the jet. While you can input coordinates directly into them on the fly, that's not really what they're meant for. If you have a waypoint at the target point, it's far easier to just select TOO mode, select Waypoint Designate, and then pickle the bomb. You don't need a FLIR pod for this to work, designating the waypoint will assign the waypoint location to the currently active weapon. PP will hopefully become more useful when we get more in depth mission planning features and data cartridge functionality in DCS. 

 

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2. After preparing everything, the correct target coordinates were way off the game world coordinates. Maybe caused by starting in a slot already in the air. Alignment update was all set ok though, maybe there is some bug as I was at max 1 hour flying and this probably shouldn't put an GNS/INS off for 3 miles...

Check to be sure the coordinates were entered with the correct elevation. Waypoint and target points are 3D points, if they're not entered at ground level the computer system will reference a spot in the middle of the air. That can cause some very weird things to happen if you're not used to it. It's also possible there was a mistake in converting between coordinates if you were still doing that.

 

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3. At another time I slaved my TGP to the current waypoint by boxing the waypoint in my HSI DDI page. It's still inconclusive to me if I really have to WPDSG that waypoint also. When I did, I then had the TGP where I wanted it and started to slew around the TGP view. This way I found a location worth to be a new waypoint.

The Hornet, like the Viper, handles sensor priority and target designation in a simpler way that is supposed to be easier to use than something like the Hog. There is no slave to waypoint, slave to sensor, or slave to SPI function in the Hornet. It's not needed. The system maintains a single Target Designation point, and all sensors by default will slave to this location. If you switch Priority to a new sensor and designate a new point, everything will switch to that point. When you Waypoint Designate (WPDSG), you are commanding the jet to designate that waypoint location as the designated target. That will cause the FLIR pod to slew to it, just as designating a point with the radar or HMD will. 

 

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4. In the A/G radar DDI page, you designate targets with an additional push of the sensor switch towards that DDI, in A/A mode, you use press the TDC for this. While pressing the TDC designates EXP areas in the A/G mode. Why not keeping the same meaning of the TDC in both modes? 

This actually is consistent, you're just misunderstanding the radar systems. In both modes, TDC Depress will command the system to designate the object under the cursor as a target, but will not change the radar scan pattern at all. In A/A, this designates the track file but will not enter STT or TWS. In A/G it will designate a fixed point on the ground, but will not command a change to the radar scan mode. You can think of it as simply dropping a pin at a point on the ground. The SCS Action will instruct the Radar to stop scanning and track only the selected object. In A/A this means entering STT on the selected track. In A/G MAP the radar will enter Fixed Target Track (FTT) where it will attempt to find an object close to the cursor location with a strong radar return (like a building) and track that object. In SEA or GMT, it will command the radar to track the return under the cursor very much like an A/A STT. In both A/A and A/G the TDC commands a weapons track, while the SCS commands the radar to stop scanning and focus on a single object. 

 

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5. speaking of confusing avionics, when we are used to return to main menus by pressing RET OSBs,

Yah, this is kinda an annoying thing with the Hornet systems, I agree. On the HSI and SA Pages, the DATA sub-page is exited by hitting the "HSI" or "SA" button that replaces DATA when you hit it. On the Radar and Stores Pages, DATA is boxed when you're in it, and hitting it again returns you and unboxes DATA. Then in the EW Page there's a "RTN" button. I really wish they'd settle on a single convention, preferably the way Radar and Stores does it, as I find that to make the most sense. Like how in the Viper whenever CNTL is available on a page pressing it will enter the Control page and highlight CNTL, then pressing the highlighted CNTL again will exit. One thing at least to remember is that "RET" is a cluster bomb and "RTN" is Return. 

[doomie]

Change co-ordinate input format via HSI->Data->A/C ( on far left), toggle button is bottom right.

 

Not in front of PC to get exact button text or screenshot, but maybe mentioned in either chuck’s guide or the ED Hornet ‘early access guide’

[Shimmergloom667]

4 hours ago, doomie said:

Change co-ordinate input format via HSI->Data->A/C ( on far left), toggle button is bottom right.

 

Not in front of PC to get exact button text or screenshot, but maybe mentioned in either chuck’s guide or the ED Hornet ‘early access guide’

That changes coordinate systems for the nav system, but not for JDAM PP entry

[doomie]

8 hours ago, Shimmergloom667 said:

That changes coordinate systems for the nav system, but not for JDAM PP entry

Mileage may vary then. I play a lot on the Hoggit servers, using JDAMs in PP mode, and use the above method to input target co-ordinates from their WebCGI page.

[Rongor]

Continuing my original post:

 

6. Trying to use the HPTP function to designate waypoints as turnpoints for off-angle attacks of Harpoons, I had to wonder why all the Harpoons with an active HPTP received the same waypoint data, despite the manual claiming only the selected Harpoon would receive the currently selected waypoint data. So I had to switch the HPTP again after each Harpoon launch to have them steer to different HPTPs, instead of simply defining different WP for each of them (like the manual offers).

 

Btw I posted my bug suspicion in a designated thread

 

[Foka]

It's not "inconvenient and not that intuitive", it's more like you didnt read the manual.
 

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1. Preparing JDAM runs, I got coordinates from the F10 map. Created a waypoint to store these coordinates. Format was DEG°MM.MMM'.

- Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a possibility to directly "copy" waypoint data to the JDAM mission data or even just assign a waypoint to a mission.
- sadly the PP mission data seems to accept only DEG°MM'SS", so I had to recalculate it on the fly -.-

 

Like said earlier - IRL PP targets are entered via cartridge. In game you have to tape them manually. As name says - Pre Planned - you can and should do it while still on the ground. While on F10 map use LAlt+Y to change coordinates system to mach your needs.

 

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- So I had to put up the waypoint data into one DDI, the stores/JDAM mission editor into the other DDI and write those data of the waypoint into the PP mission.

 

For in-game walkaround place waypoints where you need them (and if you want "bomb on coordinates" you need to enter them as prcise coordinates, and use TOO mode with designating new WPT for each drop (which also is bugged right now, because ED without reason just removed capability of programing TOO targets in advance).

 

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2. After preparing everything, the correct target coordinates were way off the game world coordinates. Maybe caused by starting in a slot already in the air. Alignment update was all set ok though, maybe there is some bug as I was at max 1 hour flying and this probably shouldn't put an GNS/INS off for 3 miles...

 

Do you have correct setiing on INS knob? It should be on IFA, not NAV in 99% of cases.

 

Quote

3. At another time I slaved my TGP to the current waypoint by boxing the waypoint in my HSI DDI page. It's still inconclusive to me if I really have to WPDSG that waypoint also. When I did, I then had the TGP where I wanted it and started to slew around the TGP view. This way I found a location worth to be a new waypoint.

- So I intended to select a new (clean) waypoint in the HSI data page. Of course, the moment I cycled the waypoints ahead, the TGP broke LOS to my desired point of interest and it was gone with the wind...

 

Because your SPI (target) was designated by WPT. When you find a target on TGP pres TDC depress to designate new SPI with TGP.

You don't need to create new WPT every time you find a target. Just designate it with TGP and drop ordinance on it. If you need a WPT make a Markpoint, it's easier and faster.

 

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4. In the A/G radar DDI page, you designate targets with an additional push of the sensor switch towards that DDI, in A/A mode, you use press the TDC for this. While pressing the TDC designates EXP areas in the A/G mode. Why not keeping the same meaning of the TDC in both modes? Being a retired aviator, I am used to avionics always trying to avoid confusion for the pilot. Mixing up the meaning of a rather important button press seems entirely unnecessary (why not also using the sensor switch for targeting in the A/A modes, moving the AACQ elsewhere of course, or using the TDC press as designator in the A/G mode?)

 

As Bunny Clark said - it's very consistant, you just didn't learn to use it.

 

 

TL;DR - RTFM.

[Rongor]

On 7/13/2021 at 12:34 PM, Foka said:

As Bunny Clark said - it's very consistant, you just didn't learn to use it.

 

 

TL;DR - RTFM.

TL, DR, it's not consistent, especially not in regard to the manual.

 

I did RTFM and maybe you guys should do so too, before handing out half baked assumptions.

 

 

On 7/9/2021 at 1:52 AM, Bunny Clark said:

This actually is consistent, you're just misunderstanding the radar systems. In both modes, TDC Depress will command the system to designate the object under the cursor as a target, but will not change the radar scan pattern at all. In A/A, this designates the track file but will not enter STT or TWS.

The manual claims otherwise on page 349:

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STT is entered at the completion of manual or automatic target acquisition.
• Pressing the TDC designate button when TDC cursor is over an RWS hit.

After assigning the TDC to the respective DDI, the SCS only handles entering AACQ and the ACM submodes in A/A radar.

In the A/G radar, the SCS is responsible for acquisition+track. The TDC only comes into play on page 202, considering the designation of an Offset Aim Point to a target.

 

So regarding the manual

- SCS does acquisition+track in A/G

- TDC does acquisition+track in A/A

 

If you wanna argue this situation is consistent (at all), then TFM doesn't really support the lesson you tried to teach me.

[Tholozor]

Honestly the manual could use a bit of an update/rewording regarding STT and the ways it can be entered/commanded. Anyone please feel free to correct me if any of this is wrong:

- TDC Depress on raw brick without an associated track should command mini raster scan for STT.

- TDC Depress on a ranked track should designate L&S.

- TDC Depress on L&S should command STT.

- SCS Right with L&S should command STT via AACQ (my preferred method).

- SCS Right without L&S should attempt to STT the highest ranked track or TUC via AACQ.

 

As far as A/G:

- TDC Depress should command a designation of a nav-stabilized point. Radar does not contribute to tracking.
- SCS Right should command FTT and track a radar return from the ground.
- SCS Right over a ground/sea track should command radar tracking of the moving object.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Tholozor

[Bunny Clark]

7 hours ago, Rongor said:

The manual claims otherwise on page 349:

Good point, I'd forgotten about double-press of TDC for STT lock. This is *not* the preferred way to enter STT, and I never use it. 

 

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the SCS only handles entering AACQ and the ACM submodes in A/A radar.

SCS will also command Fast Acquisition (FACQ). FACQ will command acquisition of the track under the radar cursor in STT, and is the preferred method for going to STT from a search mode. It is faster and easier than TDC Depress, and will set you up to better utilize bump acquisition whenever we get that function. 

[QuiGon]

On 7/8/2021 at 6:31 PM, Rongor said:

- Yes I could have slaved the TGP to the waypoint and "copied" the TGP target into a TOO mission but that isn't the point of PP right? Let's assume there was no TGP available. Yes, I hear you, maybe entering PP data during a flight is also not the point of PP? I don't know. Let's assume I received target data from a JTAC or the command center.

 

In such a situation (coordinates recieved, no TGP) you can either use the PP mode to enter the coordinates into the JDAM directly or you create a new waypoint through the HSI and then use WPDSG together with the TOO mode to drop the JDAM onto the waypoint.

[Rongor]

Currently I am training A/G weapons delivery. As I intended to use CCIP, I wanted to designate an aim point, so a mark along the heading tape can guide me towards the correct azimuth before diving into the target below the HUD frame.

Unfortunately the moment I press TDC, CCIP gets switched to AUTO.

[Tholozor]

CCIP automatically switches to AUTO when a TGT designation exists. Honestly, AUTO is just as accurate as CCIP; the computer calculates the ballistics the same, the only difference being that AUTO will control the release point (dive bombing in AUTO works just as well as CCIP). As long as the TGT designation is on-point, the impact should be about the same. But if you want to use the CCIP symbology, you'll have to Undesignate the TGT, release symbology on the HUD should revert.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Tholozor

[Recluse]

I have not had to Undesignate the target. Just switch AUTO back to CCIP on the Stores page. Whether correct or not, it allows reversion to CCIP pipper with the target diamond available for reference.

 

This also allows Visual bombing of another target near the designation point if you happen to see something else that needs bombing, or if your designation was a little off and you need to adjust the CCIP aimpoint as you get closer.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Recluse

[Swift.]

7 hours ago, Recluse said:

I have not had to Undesignate the target. Just switch AUTO back to CCIP on the Stores page. Whether correct or not, it allows reversion to CCIP pipper with the target diamond available for reference.

 

This also allows Visual bombing of another target near the designation point if you happen to see something else that needs bombing, or if your designation was a little off and you need to adjust the CCIP aimpoint as you get closer.

 

The proper way to fix something like you describe would be to assign the TDC to the HUD and slew the TD onto the desired target. Unfortunately ED still havent fixed the hornets HUD cursor speed.

[dburne]

19 minutes ago, Swiftwin9s said:

The proper way to fix something like you describe would be to assign the TDC to the HUD and slew the TD onto the desired target. Unfortunately ED still havent fixed the hornets HUD cursor speed.

 

Yeah I noticed it can be rather crazy fast.

[wilbur81]

On 7/28/2021 at 2:04 PM, dburne said:

 

Yeah I noticed it can be rather crazy fast.

Yeah, TDC in the hud is pretty much unusuably too fast.

[IvanK]

Agree with TDC slewing being to imprecise.

[Steel Jaw]

On 7/8/2021 at 1:54 PM, Tholozor said:

The Mk-20 Rockeye CBU is labeled as 'RE' for Rockeye. The CBU-99 is a Rockeye with a thermally-insulated coating to protect itself from fire cook-off when stored on a ship. 'RET' meaning Rockeye, Thermally-protected.

Good info but is there a master list of such?

[Tholozor]

1 hour ago, Mower said:

Good info but is there a master list of such?

The TAC-300 manual has a list of DDI codes. The version I have is a slightly older publication (2001) for a mid-2000s Hornet, but pretty much the only things missing from it are the 9X, GBU-38, GBU-32, and ATFLIR.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Tholozor