reported Boresighting IHADSS in VR

[DirtyMike0330]

3 hours ago, Stal2k said:

This thread is almost useless until you get to like 4 posts before this, without knowing 1) What you have the render set to (L/R/Both eyes) and 2) Knowing if you are left or right eye dominant and 3) Are you closing left, right or no eye when you are attempting to boresight, personal results aren't helpful. This is going to be an issue, I think maybe a Special option for accessibility (or keybind to force an ideal B/S) may be the long term solution required to just force a good bore sighting. 

Personally, I'm left eye dominant which is uncommon for right handed people and have the render set to both eyes for that reason. To me, these workarounds while great for now shouldn't be seen as a solution long term. For one, they don't really work that great, your mileage may vary, but even using one that works for you, it's still hard to get it to where, lets say you can reliable line up a medium range rocket run. 

Personally what Toumal said works the "best" for me, which still isn't great but usable, however I shouldn't have to do eye gymnastics to the degree required for a stereogram to boresight my HMD

If you want to figure out which is your dominant eye, you can hold your pointer finger a few inches from your face and close one eye, if your finger DOESN'T move that is your dominant eye. Closing the other eye should cause it to appear to shift. Another way is think about which eye you close to aim a gun, you tend to favor your dominant eye. If you're weird like me and right handed w/ a left dominant eye it's very hard to properly shoot a rifle. 

 

EDIT: Added #3 about which eye is being closed and how to determine which eye is dominant

 

I'm also right handed and left eye dominant. Have you tried using left eye render with the IHADSS? That's what I've been using and I've found it to be pretty comfortable. 

[Buschwick]

8 minutes ago, ruprecht said:

I was the same, but I was only aligning the circles and not putting the crosshair in them. It could be if you are only crosshairing the boresight, but not aligning the circles as well, your natural head position is close enough so it doesn't make much difference. Doing it the real-world way (crosshair aligned *and* concentric circles) seems to me to be the most accurate and accounts for all natural head positions.

100%.  It's the only way to ensure that your HMD and gun are pointed at the same target at infinite range.  I'm pretty quick with it in VR.  If in RL you were on the receiving end of my VR 30 fire I don't think you'd be complaining about my accuracy.  

[RealDCSpilot]

Best way for me now, to get pinpoint accuracy, is bringing up the PNVS after startup and check it's alignment against the world at the front outside. If it doesn't match (like a bit to much up or down or right or left) i look at the boresight reticle unit and press the B/S button (bindable) and do little corrections with my head repeating using the B/S button until the PNVS image fits perfectly. From this point the aiming with the gun works pretty well (it also effects how precise George is looking at a specific point you command him to look at).

About all the fuzz here in the thread, it's pretty obvious that the concentric circles method is only working for monitor players where the head position is fixed and correctly lined up. ED needs to enhance the calibration functionality to make it fully work in 3D space for VR.

Edited March 21, 2022 by RealDCSpilot

[Foxmike]

After my tests I can say, just pointing to the non concentric rings is the wrong way. Turning the NVS on, the clouds or other objects are way off. If I boresight with 100% concentric rings I´m point on. It wouldn´t make any sense to light up rings there, a simple lightpoint would be enough, so why concentric rings if it doesn´t matter at all. It is similar to Newtonian collimation. If I callibrate my Newtonian I also use an eyepiece with concentric rings (Concenter Eyepiece). Only if all rings a 100% concentric the optical system is  fine.

tested with my Reverb

[DirtyMike0330]

1 hour ago, Foxmike said:

After my tests I can say, just pointing to the non concentric rings is the wrong way. Turning the NVS on, the clouds or other objects are way off. If I boresight with 100% concentric rings I´m point on. It wouldn´t make any sense to light up rings there, a simple lightpoint would be enough, so why concentric rings if it doesn´t matter at all. It is similar to Newtonian collimation. If I callibrate my Newtonian I also use an eyepiece with concentric rings (Concenter Eyepiece). Only if all rings a 100% concentric the optical system is  fine.

tested with my Reverb

What is right/wrong and what is currently working in VR for a lot of folks are two different things. I agree with what the right way should be, but that right way is confirmed to not be working for a lot of folks in VR right meow, whereas the wrong way is absolutely working. I'm looking forward to an update from the team at some point just so this thread can get put to rest lol

[sirrah]

3 hours ago, DirtyMike0330 said:

What is right/wrong and what is currently working in VR for a lot of folks are two different things. I agree with what the right way should be, but that right way is confirmed to not be working for a lot of folks in VR right meow, whereas the wrong way is absolutely working. I'm looking forward to an update from the team at some point just so this thread can get put to rest lol

Exactly this!

It's not like we're making stuff up here, or that we are incapable of aligning the yellow rings concentrically. We're saying that if we do align the rings concentric, our aim is off (and not by a small amount).

 

@Foxmike, do you by any chance have the IHADSS rendered in both eyes? Otherwise it's really really strange that some of us have this problem and some don't, while using the same HMD

[Foxmike]

@sirrah

I render right eye only.

I place my head as comfortable as possible and center my VR view. I have keybindings for centering VR.

Then I have to get to a really uncomfortable position to concenter the rings with my HMD. But then my NVG matches the outside 100%. Boresighting from a comfortable position as written in the book  results in double pictures way  off....and my gun is missing targets 100s feet

[PlainSight]

I finally got the cannon accuracy I wanted:

Head natural, VR centered.

Place LOS cross inside the boresight unit.

Raise the camera view upwards to center the rings, keep looking into the unit.

Set gun ranging to Auto.

Just looking into the boresight unit as suggested in this thread always resulted in big innacuracies. Higher view point and auto range resolved this.

[SkipCarey]

What is the procedure for boresighting the HMD? ,cant seem to find it in the manual

[DirtyMike0330]

36 minutes ago, SkipCarey said:

What is the procedure for boresighting the HMD? ,cant seem to find it in the manual

I'm assuming this is an accurate manual but who knows:

https://info.publicintelligence.net/USArmy-ApacheLongbow.pdf on page 4-74 and all it says for the boresighting procedure is: 
6. WPN page - BORESIGHT button - Select.
7. IHADSS button - Select.
8. PRI INT LT knob - Adjust as desired.
9. HMD reticle - Align with BRU.
10. PLRT B/S switch - B/S and release. B/S NOW button (aircraft equipped with MTADS provisions) - Select.

2 hours ago, PlainSight said:

I finally got the cannon accuracy I wanted:

Head natural, VR centered.

Place LOS cross inside the boresight unit.

Raise the camera view upwards to center the rings, keep looking into the unit.

Set gun ranging to Auto.

Just looking into the boresight unit as suggested in this thread always resulted in big innacuracies. Higher view point and auto range resolved this.

The fact that you have to manually alter the camera view, despite being naturally positioned and center initially, in order to get the results you want is just further proof that something is jacked up here lol

[Magic Man]

43 minutes ago, SkipCarey said:

What is the procedure for boresighting the HMD? ,cant seem to find it in the manual

Pages 245/246 in the current manual.

[admiki]

7 hours ago, DirtyMike0330 said:

I'm assuming this is an accurate manual but who knows:

https://info.publicintelligence.net/USArmy-ApacheLongbow.pdf on page 4-74 and all it says for the boresighting procedure is: 
6. WPN page - BORESIGHT button - Select.
7. IHADSS button - Select.
8. PRI INT LT knob - Adjust as desired.
9. HMD reticle - Align with BRU.
10. PLRT B/S switch - B/S and release. B/S NOW button (aircraft equipped with MTADS provisions) - Select.

The fact that you have to manually alter the camera view, despite being naturally positioned and center initially, in order to get the results you want is just further proof that something is jacked up here lol

I don't think it is. You moving your head around is just letting sensors to start tracking on  known position regarding LOS. After that, sensor can track your movement and know how to corelate that with weapons. 

[RealDCSpilot]

@BIGNEWY Can you please remove the "solution" mark from the thread? We are not there yet.

Thanks!

Edited March 22, 2022 by RealDCSpilot

[M1Combat]

Can someone who is having this problem try NOT re-centering your headset with the DCS binding before doing the B/S procedure?

Place the headset on your head before DCS launch.  Sit naturally.  Don't move your head around just sit there until DCS loads.

Once DCS is up, DO NOT use the recenter...  just jump in whatever mission you use to test, B/S procedure (the by the book one where you line op the center IHADDSS reticle AND make the circles concentric)...

 

Then check accuracy.

[Kayos]

On 3/21/2022 at 2:16 PM, PlainSight said:

I finally got the cannon accuracy I wanted:

Head natural, VR centered.

Place LOS cross inside the boresight unit.

Raise the camera view upwards to center the rings, keep looking into the unit.

Set gun ranging to Auto.

Just looking into the boresight unit as suggested in this thread always resulted in big innacuracies. Higher view point and auto range resolved this.

This is the way I've been doing it too.  I think the default view the head position is way too low.  That's why we have to strain to get it all the line up.

If you look down while in the seat by default it looks like the seat is in your stomach.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Kayos

[Dexter092]

On 3/20/2022 at 9:09 PM, Toumal said:

Hi, I'm using an index and I use the following procedure, which only works if you set the IHADSS rendering to both eyes:

1) focus on the yellow circles. you will see the green cross twice
2) put the green crosses left and right of the boresighting circles, like so:

3) move your head laterally up/down and side to side to make the circles concentric, while keeping the crosses equidistant to the center.
4) Press TDC enter.

Again, only works for if you commit the sacrilege of rendering this on both eyes, which I don't mind at all. Using this procedure the gun, CPG slaving etc. are all spot-on.

 

This is the exact method I found out on my own and aligns pretty much perfectly. You can use NVS to check if boresight is aligned properly.
I believe the issue currently is that in "2D screens" the HMD pretends to be the right eye but is actually in the middle of the viewer. In VR, the "middle eye" doesn't exist. There's the natural left/right ones. But the boresight in DCS is designed to align to the middle of the helmet due to how a normal screen works, hence why trying to aligning the right eye moves everything on the left.

Also the "sacrilege" to me doesn't count since for some reason having any HMD on only one eye tends to hurt them somehow...

Edited March 22, 2022 by Dexter092

[Clogger]

I think the easiest option would be for ED to add an option in the specials tabs to enable/disable the need to boresight the IHADDS on a cold start. Yes not realistic (but it is a mundane task which can dramatically effect accuracy if done wrong). I am using both eye render in VR as the HUD looks better on my HMD that way. 

I started a topic in the wishlist section, give it a thumbs up and +1 in the comments if you agree

 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Clogger

[ddc196]

I haven't used boresight once and my accuracy with the gun is spot on. Not saying that's the way it's supposed to be but it's working for me.

[YoYo]

2 hours ago, Clogger said:

I think the easiest option would be for ED to add an option in the specials tabs to enable/disable the need to boresight the IHADDS on a cold start. Yes not realistic (but it is a mundane task which can dramatically effect accuracy if done wrong). I am using both eye render in VR as the HUD looks better on my HMD that way. 

I started a topic in the wishlist section, give it a thumbs up and +1 in the comments if you agree

 

 

 

Good idea, im on this.

[RealDCSpilot]

I don't think that's a good idea. They would need to add a triangulation loop that is constantly running every frame to check for the VR camera rig's position and rotation to make sure the alignment is always spot on. I would like to have this extra workload limited and only applied during the boresighting procedure.
For me, it looks like the source of the problem has a pretty simple reason. At the moment the "calibration" is only done against screenspace, a simple 2D parallax matching process, sufficient enough for monitor use and only mimicking the real procedure. But to work correctly in VR it needs to be applied to world space in three dimensions and has to work much more like the real thing. They have to emulate a virtual TrackIR system in the cockpit so to say...

Edited March 23, 2022 by RealDCSpilot

[coolts]

On 3/20/2022 at 7:55 PM, pimp said:

Ok. I just tried this method 6 times. 3 Hot starts and 3 cold starts and it works for me. Maybe it's not suppose to work this way but it does. Just get the LOS Reticle inside of the Boresight Reticle Unit and disregard the circles. I get much much better results this way. Maybe there's a bug in VR where the circles are misaligned as I mentioned in my thread. Thanks @DirtyMike0330 for the tip.

 

Yep.  We can replace this entire thread with the line, "Just look at the reticule and hit boresight.  The circles mean bugger all in VR right now".

[Toumal]

6 minutes ago, coolts said:

Yep.  We can replace this entire thread with the line, "Just look at the reticule and hit boresight.  The circles mean bugger all in VR right now".

I can NOT confirm this. In fact, I know it's not the case. I used to do this and the result is that George doesn't look where you tell him to and the gun doesn't fire where you aim. I initially thought that George is bugged but no, it was just wrong alignment. If you're lucky he's just off by a little bit, but if you're unlucky he aims way low or way high relative to your crosshair.

On 3/20/2022 at 10:59 PM, Stal2k said:

Personally, I'm left eye dominant which is uncommon for right handed people and have the render set to both eyes for that reason. To me, these workarounds while great for now shouldn't be seen as a solution long term. For one, they don't really work that great, your mileage may vary, but even using one that works for you, it's still hard to get it to where, lets say you can reliable line up a medium range rocket run. 

 

I have to agree, though personally I don't have that problem I had people on my server say they saw only one crosshair. That threw me for a loop for quite a bit, until we all realized that it was an eye dominance issue. Closing one eye at time helps, but it makes alignment even harder since in VR, you have to aim left and right of the outer circles, at equal distances. It's really fiddly if you have a major eye dominance.

A solution could be that during alignment, the IHADDS is rendered in 2D without any depth, so you can just put a single crosshair into the very center and press cursor enter. Then it could switch back to 3d depth rendering.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Toumal

[coolts]

So do we use the concentric circles in VR or not?  I was going mental last night as my gun was WAAAAAYYY off and I was shooting from less than .5km.  (Auto range).  I was convinced it was something to do with Acquisition sources, etc., but no.  It was my boresight alignments from cold start.

 

 

[Mange]

Do you guys knows how accurate it’s to be “re-centerd” when you do the B/S? I use Oculus after some flying it sometimes it just drifts away a bit and I have to re center… does that make it less accurate to aim?

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

22 minutes ago, coolts said:

 

So do we use the concentric circles in VR or not?

 

I personally don’t. I just point at the centre of the bore sight unit and then click bore sight on the MPD.

I tried both, and in the former case the aim is quite a bit off. In the latter it’s spot-on, providing you account for movement of the helicopter: the shells don’t travel at light speed after all…