What do you think about burble effect ?

[Zodiacc]

As the title say.

It seems quite different from Tomcat and for sure it is going to be tweak-out soon .It kicks-in too late and too much IMO.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Zodiacc

[joker62]

Quote

It kicks-in too late and too much IMO.

I completely agree. I was just waiting for someone to talk about it. I thought I was the only one who got this impression. Analysis with Tacview highlights just this, even with different FA-18 loadout configurations. A big challenge compared to before, at least for me.

[VFA41_Lion]

haven't really noticed it to be honest. way less pronounced than the Tomcat's.

[joker62]

Quote

haven't really noticed it to be honest. way less pronounced than the Tomcat's.

Interesting. I don't own f-14 and can't make a comparison. I hope others can comment on this.

[bonesvf103]

I fly both the Tomcat and the Bug.  IN the Tomcat, it's there, but I don't really notice it--I think I just got used to factoring it into my traps.

 

Now the Hornet, I just tried today and I was on the ball and CL all the way and when I got to the ramp, boom, that burble dropped me right down on the deck, like an express elevator.  It was so sudden, I didn't know what happened and then it dawned on me that there is a burble now.

v6,

boNes

[Zodiacc]

Also auto-land is mostly bolter for me just because of the burble i think.It is really smooth and stable all the way down until burble at ramp.

(All my landings are 33.000 lbs or  below and wind over deck is 25-30 knot btw)

[Nealius]

I don't think I've experienced it yet, though I typically have higher natural wind at an angle to eliminate x-wind component, which would "blow" the burble'd air starboard of the aproach. I'm wondering if wind direction/speed is modeled in both ED's burble and HB's burble. Burble should be strongest with 0 natural wind and carrier at 27kts, etc. Might need to test if I ever get around to it.

[joker62]

I did some tests this morning. While keeping wind on the deck constant of about 26-30 kts, I changed the intensity of the wind each time (from 5 to 25 kts). Almost all landings were rated C: 3PTSIW WIRE # 2, some OK: _LOAR_ WIRE # 2 or 4. I always noticed an upward push between the AR and IW, which lowers the nose of the FA-18 (or raises the rear) just before contact. A little bit of throttle and bolter. I also tried several On-speed AoAs, from 7 to 9.5, but nothing has changed, always an upward push between the AR and IW. I'm trying to figure out how I can now improve my landings or if the burble effect (again WIP, I know) needs to be revised extensively. Grading of my previous landings was quite high and steady. Thanks to those who shared their impressions about this effect.

[Swift.]

This looks like the FCS bug that has been driving the ever persistent reverse ground effect bug is also driving this. It seems in general:

Airframe pushed down = nose goes up

Airframe pushed up = nose goes down

So we see the nose go up then down during a carrier approach as the airframe falls in close and is pushed back up at the ramp.

Similarly, we see the nose get pulled down at a shore landing because the airframe is being pushed up by the ground effect of the runway.

 

So to conclude, it is now obvious that EDs priority needs to be correcting the 'nose suck' bug, to resolve both the burble issues and the revers ground effect issues.

[norman99]

Seems overly excessive to me. With a CASEIII using ACLS Mode1, it almost always drops me on the ramp, before the 1 wire, causing a bolter. There's a few tweaks coming soon.

[joker62]

Thanks to both of you, now i understand what it depends on. Look forward to the upcoming tweaks.

[Tusky]

When this ACLS frenzy fades away and people will start fly CASE I again, I hope more people will notice this abrupt nose down behaviour when at the ramp. As far as I remember, it was not there before the patch; not being a real-life carrier qualified FA-18 pilot, I can only speculate but that quick change of attitude does feels strange to me... 

P.S. Wands at night are awesome though

[rcjonessnp175]

13 hours ago, Swift. said:

This looks like the FCS bug that has been driving the ever persistent reverse ground effect bug is also driving this. It seems in general:

Airframe pushed down = nose goes up

Airframe pushed up = nose goes down

So we see the nose go up then down during a carrier approach as the airframe falls in close and is pushed back up at the ramp.

Similarly, we see the nose get pulled down at a shore landing because the airframe is being pushed up by the ground effect of the runway.

 

So to conclude, it is now obvious that EDs priority needs to be correcting the 'nose suck' bug, to resolve both the burble issues and the revers ground effect issues.

Question for ya, don't have allot of time in Hornet as been waiting for it to be mostly complete, anyways I always have turbulence set in mission editor between 22-36,  i notice the f18 goes bonkers up and down with it on shore landings.  What you just posted have to do with this or am I missing something?

[Tusky]

hace 11 minutos, rcjonessnp175 dijo:

Question for ya, don't have allot of time in Hornet as been waiting for it to be mostly complete, anyways I always have turbulence set in mission editor between 22-36,  i notice the f18 goes bonkers up and down with it on shore landings.  What you just posted have to do with this or am I missing something?

Nothing to do with the discussion here. The turbulence is fine and to be honest, between 22-36 ft/s is significant... 

My post (I speak for myself only) was about the change of attitude of the aircraft just before it touches down: sudden decrese of AoA (marked by the AoA indexer) with nose going down (and tail going up).

Edited April 30, 2022 by Tusky

[rcjonessnp175]

1 minute ago, Tusky said:

Nothing to do with the discussion here. The turbulence is fine and to be honest, between 22-36 ft/s is significant... 

My post (I speak for myself only) was about the change of attitude of the aircraft just before it touches down: sudden decrese of AoA (marked by the AoA indexer) and nose going down (and tail going up).

Be a forum police all ya want, could all be connected as its dealing with the flight model yes.....

[abak]

I am also puzzled by the burble. I'd say 80% of my CASE 1 approaches are now rated C and 3PTSIW. I understand why a burble could cause an increased sink rate. But this nose down effect iis killing me. I started to develop a habit to pull the stick almost fully backwards, and add some throttle over the deck. Feels rather unnatural.

[MARLAN_]

I felt like the burble had an extremely excessive pitch up effect when I first tested it in the F18 Supercarrier Case I mission

However, during my last full mission landing the burble felt totally reasonable. I wonder if that instant action mission is out of date/bugged or something or perhaps the WOD in that mission is wrong causing an exasperated burble because it felt fine in my mission.

I'll have to look into to further.

Edited May 1, 2022 by MARLAN_

[Zodiacc]

I also experience excessive nose-up instead of nose-down when burble kicks-in.

[Nealius]

After some more time behind the boat, I'm starting to notice it. I haven't experienced a clear downdraft or any nose-up or nose-down, and I've miraculously avoided the infamous 3PTS grades, but just before the ramp I get a huge updraft that causes a bolter or 4-wire. I have to significantly reduce throttle at the ramp, then add power once I get back on glideslope. At which point the LSO gives me a waveoff at the bolter when he should have waved me off at the ramp, or EGIW when my eased-gun was before the ramp. Cut passes for days.

[Zodiacc]

Its kinda weird that every one has described something different from each other.Maybe we should post our tracks and get an idea whats going on.I will post my track tomorrow.

[Jackjack171]

3 hours ago, Nealius said:

After some more time behind the boat, I'm starting to notice it. I haven't experienced a clear downdraft or any nose-up or nose-down, and I've miraculously avoided the infamous 3PTS grades, but just before the ramp I get a huge updraft that causes a bolter or 4-wire. I have to significantly reduce throttle at the ramp, then add power once I get back on glideslope. At which point the LSO gives me a waveoff at the bolter when he should have waved me off at the ramp, or EGIW when my eased-gun was before the ramp. Cut passes for days.

Same here. Updraft just as I cross the ramp and an EGIW with the associated cut-pass. Haven't tried the Tomcat yet.

[CobraKhan]

On the 2 or 3 occasions that I conscientiously thought to myself 'we now have the burble right at touchdown, need to be aware'; well on those occasions I boltered!  On the multiple occasions where I haven't worry about it at all, I hooked up without any problem.  

[abak]

Let me attach a couple of tracks then. This one is my typical pass: Cut and 3 Points. When the burble effect kicks in, AoA becomes unstable. Even pulling the stick all the way back does not help.

burble_cut_3pts.trk

And this one, with the same weather conditions, is that rare occasion when I didn't exceed the 3 Points threshold from the point of view of the LSO.

burble_ok.trk

[UncleReiben]

Did a quick test with Wake Turbulence forced off and the burble doesn't exist (or wasn't noticeable). I guess that makes sense as it would use that model to apply the effect.

Attached the track with Wake Turbulence off for reference. Apologies for fiddling around in the beginning, didn't originally intend to make a track file to post

made one with Wake turned back on for comparison... Carrier is 24 kts with ~6 kts headwind

NoWakeTurb.trk

With Wake Turbulence from above post.

WakeTurb.trk

[Nealius]

I have wake turbulence off and do experience a bit of a burble. It's hard to quantify but it typically ends up in me floating over the wires into a bolter in CASE I. In CASE III I come in with a low-ball, then end up floating up across the ramp to snag the 4-wire. I can't drive it straight down the glideslope like I used to.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Nealius