nitron Posted September 17, 2022 Share Posted September 17, 2022 Just happened to me again. While I typically run into this when returning to the carrier I also get this when returning to an airport like it just happened. I don’t think I had Tomcats close by but it’s definitely some landing and/or communication issue during that phase. The game rarely crashes for me other than now quite often shortly before landing. I use liberation and I also use vaicom/voice attack plugin. While I guess voice attack should not cause crashes here I would still like to point this out it’s being used in my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayhawk1971 Posted September 17, 2022 Share Posted September 17, 2022 (edited) I only use Voice Attack/ Vaicom Pro with the Tomcat. But I also ran into this freeze-crash a couple of times when flying the Hornet in a SP campaign (that uses AI Tomcats), so I didn't even run Voice Attack in that case. Edited September 17, 2022 by Jayhawk1971 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fazer82 Posted September 19, 2022 Share Posted September 19, 2022 On 8/25/2022 at 3:14 PM, Roosterfeet said: I've had 3 freezes on 3 attempts to finish Raven One Dominant Fury Mission 08. All occurred around 50 nm from the boat at recovery. Don't know for sure that it's the same cause as your refueling freeze but that Dominant Fury mission includes AI Tomcats and there have been multiple reports of freezes approaching the boat in missions with Tomcats. @IronMike Same has just happened to me on this mission, another user aside from the above reported the same. May be an easily reproducible scenario if this is indeed tomcat related. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyGun1450 Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 (edited) Had it again but this time in the Hornet. Im not convinced this is even tomcat related, and no AI tomcats were trying to land at the time. ED needs to get in here and diagnose this, not Heatblur. .Log attached even though it tells us nothing. dcs.log Edited September 20, 2022 by HeavyGun1450 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverdevil Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 11 hours ago, HeavyGun1450 said: Had it again but this time in the Hornet. Im not convinced this is even tomcat related, and no AI tomcats were trying to land at the time. ED needs to get in here and diagnose this, not Heatblur. .Log attached even though it tells us nothing. dcs.log 86.88 kB · 3 downloads you should start a new thread. your issue is not related to this thread IMO. you get a bunch of these errors. rename the scripts folder to scripts.bak [string "C:\Users\Nicholas\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Scripts/TheWay.lua"]:126: in function <[string "C:\Users\Nicholas\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Scripts/TheWay.lua"]:112>. your logs just stops. just before you get this in the log. what is this device? 2022-09-20 01:01:22.370 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e8d35acba2#{2a323d9d-edf1-430b-ab95-5860894493d4} 2022-09-20 01:01:22.628 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e8d35acba2#{d0875fb4-2196-4c7a-a63d-e416addd60a1} 2022-09-20 01:01:22.824 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e8d35acba2#{4c38e836-6a2f-5949-9406-1788ea20d1d5} 2022-09-20 01:01:23.020 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e8d35acba2#{8660e926-ff3d-580c-959e-8b8af44d7cde} 2022-09-20 01:01:23.214 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e8d35acba2#{ae9eb9c4-8819-51d8-879d-9a42ffb89d4e} 2022-09-20 01:01:23.949 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:23456789-1234-1010-8000-045D4BF923F4#{2a323d9d-edf1-430b-ab95-5860894493d4} 2022-09-20 01:01:24.190 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:23456789-1234-1010-8000-045D4BF923F4#{d0875fb4-2196-4c7a-a63d-e416addd60a1} 2022-09-20 01:01:24.384 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:23456789-1234-1010-8000-045D4BF923F4#{032a3585-22a4-526d-9305-263d02378b81} 2022-09-20 01:01:24.577 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:23456789-1234-1010-8000-045D4BF923F4#{4c38e836-6a2f-5949-9406-1788ea20d1d5} 2022-09-20 01:01:24.769 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:23456789-1234-1010-8000-045D4BF923F4#{ae9eb9c4-8819-51d8-879d-9a42ffb89d4e} 2022-09-20 01:01:25.140 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:23456789-1234-1010-8000-045D4BF923F4#{8660e926-ff3d-580c-959e-8b8af44d7cde} 2022-09-20 01:01:25.333 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e86de4cba2#{2a323d9d-edf1-430b-ab95-5860894493d4} 2022-09-20 01:01:25.641 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e86de4cba2#{d0875fb4-2196-4c7a-a63d-e416addd60a1} 2022-09-20 01:01:25.838 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e86de4cba2#{4c38e836-6a2f-5949-9406-1788ea20d1d5} 2022-09-20 01:01:26.034 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e86de4cba2#{8660e926-ff3d-580c-959e-8b8af44d7cde} 2022-09-20 01:01:26.356 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e86de4cba2#{ae9eb9c4-8819-51d8-879d-9a42ffb89d4e} 2022-09-20 01:01:26.617 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:9be273ce-44da-3a60-a6f7-e76fd4557c02#{2a323d9d-edf1-430b-ab95-5860894493d4} 2022-09-20 01:01:26.810 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:9be273ce-44da-3a60-a6f7-e76fd4557c02#{ac4630a5-0b64-46e5-981b-12535fc1f5de} 2022-09-20 01:01:27.010 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:9be273ce-44da-3a60-a6f7-e76fd4557c02#{1dc7cf2a-9167-5887-b1b2-16e04384f64c} 2022-09-20 01:01:27.202 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e86de4cba0#{2a323d9d-edf1-430b-ab95-5860894493d4} 2022-09-20 01:01:27.557 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e86de4cba0#{ac4630a5-0b64-46e5-981b-12535fc1f5de} 2022-09-20 01:01:27.832 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e86de4cba0#{1dc7cf2a-9167-5887-b1b2-16e04384f64c} 2022-09-20 01:01:28.089 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e86de4cba0#{235326c2-8ad9-5fbb-adb6-676eb6002588} 2022-09-20 01:01:28.342 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70de7ef9cba0#{2a323d9d-edf1-430b-ab95-5860894493d4} 2022-09-20 01:01:28.534 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70de7ef9cba0#{ac4630a5-0b64-46e5-981b-12535fc1f5de} 2022-09-20 01:01:28.727 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70de7ef9cba0#{1dc7cf2a-9167-5887-b1b2-16e04384f64c} 2022-09-20 01:01:29.038 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70de7ef9cba0#{235326c2-8ad9-5fbb-adb6-676eb6002588} 2022-09-20 01:01:29.329 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70fd5431cba2#{2a323d9d-edf1-430b-ab95-5860894493d4} 2022-09-20 01:01:29.575 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70fd5431cba2#{d0875fb4-2196-4c7a-a63d-e416addd60a1} 2022-09-20 01:01:29.830 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70fd5431cba2#{4c38e836-6a2f-5949-9406-1788ea20d1d5} 2022-09-20 01:01:30.080 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70fd5431cba2#{8660e926-ff3d-580c-959e-8b8af44d7cde} 2022-09-20 01:01:30.331 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70fd5431cba2#{ae9eb9c4-8819-51d8-879d-9a42ffb89d4e} 2022-09-20 01:01:30.585 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70fd5431cba0#{2a323d9d-edf1-430b-ab95-5860894493d4} 2022-09-20 01:01:30.839 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70fd5431cba0#{ac4630a5-0b64-46e5-981b-12535fc1f5de} 2022-09-20 01:01:31.085 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70fd5431cba0#{1dc7cf2a-9167-5887-b1b2-16e04384f64c} 2022-09-20 01:01:31.336 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70fd5431cba0#{235326c2-8ad9-5fbb-adb6-676eb6002588} 2022-09-20 01:01:31.585 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e8d35acba0#{2a323d9d-edf1-430b-ab95-5860894493d4} 2022-09-20 01:01:31.834 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e8d35acba0#{ac4630a5-0b64-46e5-981b-12535fc1f5de} 2022-09-20 01:01:32.081 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e8d35acba0#{1dc7cf2a-9167-5887-b1b2-16e04384f64c} 2022-09-20 01:01:32.327 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:482e8dac-7fad-11df-afb7-70e8d35acba0#{235326c2-8ad9-5fbb-adb6-676eb6002588} 2022-09-20 01:01:32.571 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:329a0aac-7ac7-4547-b9db-4d9a8a3806d7#{2a323d9d-edf1-430b-ab95-5860894493d4} 2022-09-20 01:01:32.818 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:329a0aac-7ac7-4547-b9db-4d9a8a3806d7#{ac4630a5-0b64-46e5-981b-12535fc1f5de} 2022-09-20 01:01:33.067 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:329a0aac-7ac7-4547-b9db-4d9a8a3806d7#{1dc7cf2a-9167-5887-b1b2-16e04384f64c} 2022-09-20 01:01:33.314 INFO APP: Device unplugged: \\?\SWD#DAFUPnPProvider#uuid:1dc139d3-ef10-39cc-9a60-98468e19ae0d#{2a323d9d-edf1-430b-ab95-5860894493d4} AKA_SilverDevil AKA Forums My YouTube “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.” — Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryzor Posted September 24, 2022 Share Posted September 24, 2022 On 8/10/2022 at 11:48 PM, Sandman1330 said: I may be a victim of this as well. Twice it happened to me, crashed in the same location each time: Flying F18C, Night time, gray and rainy, Persian Gulf map, flying from Al Minhad out to the boat to practice Case III. Inside of 10NM from the boat (once it happened 4 or 5 miles, the second time around 9 or 10), DCS freezes. This was on a multiplayer server. I'm not sure if it's related to the Tomcat bug. There are AI Tomcats flying in the mission, and static Tomcats on the boat. Though there were also static tomcats sitting next to me when I departed Al Minhad, so it wasn't the first time those textures were loaded. Unfortunately no track as it hard crashed. I did do a few successful Case III where I departed off the boat and returned to the boat. The crash only happened when I departed Al Minhad for the boat. This could be due to the length of time, as it took longer departing from Minhad, or due to something else. There is also this line in my log: 2022-08-10 21:28:35.648 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND: texture 'wet_map_map' not found. Asked from '' Makes me wonder if it was something to do with the Carrier's wet deck, but I've had no issues loading directly onto the carrier... dcs.log 74.16 kB · 3 downloads I have had a similar freeze. Had to stop DCS. My logs ending is very similar to yours dcs.log.old.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmk80 Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 I noticed a lot of us are having this error in our logs: 2022-09-24 01:46:26.469 ERROR SOUND: can't load wave: "speech\eng\common\navy_player\effects\aircrafts\cockpits\radioclickbefore.wav" 2022-09-24 01:46:26.472 ERROR SOUND: can't load wave: "speech\eng\common\navy_player\effects\aircrafts\cockpits\radioclickafter.wav" Could this have anything to do with the freezes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draconus Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 15 minutes ago, rmk80 said: Could this have anything to do with the freezes? No. There are a lot of errors and warnings in logs but they are not the cause of the freezes or crashes. Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060 Rift S T16000M TWCS TFRP FC3 F-14A/B F-15E CA SC NTTR PG Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algherghezghez Posted October 2, 2022 Share Posted October 2, 2022 This is really starting to bother me now. It is unacceptable that a problem that makes some part of the game completely unplayable (I cannot progress on the F-14 caucasus campaign) is not fixed in so long. I understand some problems are harder to fix but for all the money we spend here I at least expect to be able to play. I've never been one that complains all the time but this is becoming too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGS Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) It's freezing (not responding) for me while flying the Tomcat on Cage the Bear campaign missions 5 and 6. Annoyingly while flying back to the boat after completing the mission. Version 2.7.18.30765 Update: Have tried not using F2 or other external views but it still froze on mission 7. Log attached and a cropped tacview file in case it helps. GeForce GTX 1660 Ti, driver 462.31, i7-9750H 2.6 GHz, 16GB RAM dcs.log CTB CS5 crash cropped.acmi Edited October 12, 2022 by JGS Update Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1330 Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Are people still having this problem, or is it just me? I'm having consistent crashes in the Raven One Dominant Fury campaign, in every case it's on RTB to the boat... The campaign is effectively unplayable due to these crashes. Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffreyC Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 I'm still having it but it seems less often. Or that may just be my own dumb luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1330 Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 I’ve received a tip in the Raven One forum to disable the F14 module in the mod manager. OFC it means you can’t fly the tomcat but apparently it has worked for some. I haven’t tried it yet but we will see how it shakes out. 1 Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boerdi Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) And again... Game freeze on MP server (Hoggit GAW) while F2 viewing AI Tomcat trying to land on carrier (Roosevelt). I took the screenshot out of reflex and the game froze a second later after turning the camera to get a side view of the AI tomcat Detailed log attached pro forma dcs.log Edited October 23, 2022 by boerdi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boerdi Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 Potential fix incoming. Let's hope for the best! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmk80 Posted October 26, 2022 Author Share Posted October 26, 2022 Fingers crossed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1330 Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 Hopefully the Heatblur fix solves the problem. In the event it doesn’t, disabling the F14 in the mod manager has so far seemed to work for me. I haven’t played much, it in that time I haven’t seen another crash. Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boerdi Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 No luck with 2.8 Got another F2 camera freeze while viewing AI Tomcats on MP Server Screenshot is grabbed from Shadowplay showing the frozen last frame Detailed log attached dcs.log Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted October 29, 2022 ED Team Share Posted October 29, 2022 6 hours ago, boerdi said: No luck with 2.8 Got another F2 camera freeze while viewing AI Tomcats on MP Server Screenshot is grabbed from Shadowplay showing the frozen last frame Detailed log attached dcs.log 821.03 kB · 4 downloads Please remove all mods and run a repair. Lets start there first. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boerdi Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, NineLine said: Please remove all mods and run a repair. Lets start there first. Tacview and SRS? When the 2.8 update finished, the purity check thing in the MP server browser showed me that the countermeasures LUA of the Hornet didn't pass the integrity check. It's the only file I modified by hand to save my custom Manual 1 and 5 programs for flares and chaff. I had the original file saved and wanted to revert to it but I lost SA with my file naming and deleted of course the backuped original. This led to a repair process/integrity verification on Steam to regain the original file. So the game's integrity has already been checked after 2.8 update. The freeze happened shortly afterwards. For completion's sake, here are my specs: DCS Steam Edition Addons: Tacview and SRS No mods Primary plane: Hornet Do I own the F-14 module: Yes Specs: i9-12900K 3090 Ti 64 GB RAM DDR5-5200 (MemTest: zero errors) Audio: Soundblaster X4 (USB) DCS installed on 2 TB M.2 NVMe drive OS installed on 1 TB M.2 NVMe drive Windows 11 OS and all drivers up to date (afaik) Edited October 29, 2022 by boerdi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reccelow Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 Happened to me too today first time ever. Set up a test run on 2.8, Syria map doing a sightseeing tour in the F14B and did a F2 view and got a hard freeze. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWSmith Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 I really don't think it's related to the view, because I've most often had it freeze while I'm in-cockpit, looking straight ahead, cruising from one waypoint to another. I've even tried without head tracking, just to eliminate any possibility of any camera movement whatsoever, and it still happens. No mods at all, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livers Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 9 hours ago, Reccelow said: Happened to me too today first time ever. Set up a test run on 2.8, Syria map doing a sightseeing tour in the F14B and did a F2 view and got a hard freeze. Yep, F2 view randomly does a complete hang for me. Logs say nothing, they just stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boerdi Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 (edited) Did some testing over the past two days. (As stated in my previous post, file integrity has been verified by Steam) Disabled Tacview and joined MP servers with known AI Tomcat units (alternating between Hoggit PGAW and Flashpoint Levant). Trying to force a freeze by joining the round normally, doing one or more missions and while en route "browsing" through the other air and naval units (players and AI) via F2 and F9. Including camera movements around the units. Disabling Tacview gave of course a FPS boost and I played many missions on first day without a hitch. That gave me hope and that streak continued today until now. Freeze happened again on Hoggit PGAW (early game with most bases still uncapped and AI Tomcats over carriers doing CAP): Flying in Hornet. Taking off from Washington. Did two sorties (with a landing on carrier to rearm and refuel) taking out two tracking radars. All the while "browsing" through the other units. On the way back to the carrier (I think I was around 20 nm from the Washington) the game froze during camera movement when F2 hopped to a player Hornet at Al Dhafra. Detailed log attached dcs.log Edited October 30, 2022 by boerdi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverdevil Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 @boerdi i am guessing that when you were jumping from AC to AC views, you got on a harrier. it generated an error on the texture Quote 2022-10-30 17:40:17.754 ERROR_ONCE DX11BACKEND (15716): texture 'av8_l1.tga' not found. Asked from '' have you tried going through a mission without flipping through units? each time you get another AC, the sim needs to do another texture. AKA_SilverDevil AKA Forums My YouTube “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.” — Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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