correct as is HARM cannot target EWR

[GhostOps1977]

Radars in subcategory EWR cannot be targeted by the AGM-88C in TOO or PB.  Verified in F/A-18C and F-16.  I can see it on the RWR but not on the HARM page.

[sea2sky]

8 minutes ago, GhostOps1977 said:

Radars in subcategory EWR cannot be targeted by the AGM-88C in TOO or PB.  Verified in F/A-18C and F-16.  I can see it on the RWR but not on the HARM page.

Is not that because EWR are passive?

EDIT: Actually, my bad. They are active of course.

Edited September 1, 2022 by sea2sky

[Flappie]

This is correct as is. EW radars usually operate at lower frequencies, and thus longer wavelengths that are not detected by ARM seekers.

Previous DCS versions woud allow HARM missiles to detect and target EW radards. That is no longer the case.

[Moonshine]

Interesting. Might have been missing on the patch notes. Although it might now be more realistic, its sad to see such changes not to be noted anywhere as it does have an impact on how people operate and may cause not needed drama/„false“ bug reports and thus more work for ed to explain than a simple one liner in the patchnotes.

also i did not go back and read the patchnotes again, if it is on there, just ignore this comment

[Frederf]

Nebo radar uses VHF, L, and X. VHF is too low for HARM but L and X is not.

[Moonshine]

they must all be set to VHF then, since none can be found currently

[HeavyGun1450]

44 minutes ago, Flappie said:

This is correct as is. EW radars usually operate at lower frequencies, and thus longer wavelengths that are not detected by ARM seekers.

Previous DCS versions woud allow HARM missiles to detect and target EW radards. That is no longer the case.

That could have at least been included in the patch notes rather then confusing everyone.

[Moonshine]

now this is interesting, in the post here: 

the mission asks you to target a EWR. the post has been locked and under investigation by @BIGNEWY. however Flappie says no longer being able to target EWR is "correct as is".

please excuse my confusion now

[BIGNEWY]

1 hour ago, Moonshine said:

now this is interesting, in the post here: 

the mission asks you to target a EWR. the post has been locked and under investigation by @BIGNEWY. however Flappie says no longer being able to target EWR is "correct as is".

please excuse my confusion now

I have reported the training mission as it instructs the user to select S when only U is available, not because of the capability of the weapon. 

thanks

[Moonshine]

ah, thank you for the clarification. 

will the HARM table get reworked? as in; why would one list emitters (101 and 102 for example) that you can not see with the missile or the HTS nor target in any way with it?

[_SteelFalcon_]

13 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

I have reported the training mission as it instructs the user to select S when only U is available, not because of the capability of the weapon. 

thanks

In what way does that refer to the Harm tracking an EWR or not? In this thread it is stated that the Harm can no longer target EWRs but the training mission from that other bug report says to target an EWR.

Is the mission obsolete or should the Harm still be able to track an EWR?

if the harm should still be able to track the EWR, why is it marked „correct as is“?

if the Harm can no longer track EWRs, the training mission cannot be completed as instructed in the mission.

Edited September 2, 2022 by _SteelFalcon_

[okopanja]

2 hours ago, Frederf said:

Nebo radar uses VHF, L, and X. VHF is too low for HARM but L and X is not.

There is more than one Nebo radar in the family and aside from the name they are very much different.

The one we are talking about here is VHF band, which means no HARM fun.

[Moonshine]

interesting. brings me back to the point where it would be nice to at least get some information about such changes. i could not find any notes as to which EWR version is modelled (as in what type of frequency band they are using), which leaves a lot to speculation and guesswork. would be nice to have that cleared up.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Moonshine

[okopanja]

1 minute ago, Moonshine said:

interesting. brings me back to the point where it would be nice to at least get some information about such changes. i could not find any notes as to which EWR version is modelled (as in what type of frequency band they are using), which leaves a lot to speculation and guesswork. would be nice to have that cleared up.

VHF: 30-300MHz

HARM > 500MHz

[Moonshine]

so we just assume the nebo version we got in dcs is just vhf due to the changes made and not listed in the last patch. could have saved us all this discussion

would answer the question above that the HARM training mission is in fact obsolete as it can not be completed

Edited September 1, 2022 by Moonshine

[Northstar98]

Both the 1L13 and 55G6 are B band radars (250 - 500 MHz).

According to this, the 1L13 operates between 180 - 220 MHz and according to this, the 55G6 should be VHF band (this is actually for the 55Zh6U 'Nebo-U', but unsure what the differences between it and our radar are).

On 9/1/2022 at 5:58 PM, Frederf said:

Nebo radar uses VHF, L, and X. VHF is too low for HARM but L and X is not.

AFAIK, out of the Nebo family only the RLM-D operates in the L band and the RLM-S operates in the X band. Both are radars we don't have in DCS (belonging to the Nebo M family).  

[okopanja]

On 9/1/2022 at 9:32 PM, Moonshine said:

so we just assume the nebo version we got in dcs is just vhf due to the changes made and not listed in the last patch. could have saved us all this discussion

would answer the question above that the HARM training mission is in fact obsolete as it can not be completed

 

This is not assumption, aside from name (LOL) these radars are quite different physically and in terms of electronics.

[GhostOps1977]

Welp, the Sidearm can sure hit an EWR no problem.  Make of that what you will.

[golgot]

Well, this interesting discussion lets open an important question (already raised by Moonshine in this post):

Why do EWR have pre-briefed HARM target codes if HARM are not supposed to deal with them?

EWR 1L13 S --> 101  and EWR 55G6 S --> 102

If the HARM target codes list is correct wrt IRL, this is a proof that HARM should be able to detect and engage those EWR in whatever mode (SP, TOO, PB). Otherwise this list should be corrected in user manuals.

[Northstar98]

On 9/6/2022 at 9:16 PM, golgot said:

Well, this interesting discussion lets open an important question (already raised by Moonshine in this post):

Why do EWR have pre-briefed HARM target codes if HARM are not supposed to deal with them?

Probably because the ALIC tables were made before the HARM and HTS had their frequency ranges simulated.

On 9/6/2022 at 9:16 PM, golgot said:

EWR 1L13 S --> 101  and EWR 55G6 S --> 102

If the HARM target codes list is correct wrt IRL, this is a proof that HARM should be able to detect and engage those EWR in whatever mode (SP, TOO, PB). Otherwise this list should be corrected in user manuals.

Which they almost certainly are not, especially when you look at things like ships. The list is likely just made up (and is probably customiseable IRL).

Edited September 9, 2022 by Northstar98

[Flappie]

On 9/6/2022 at 10:16 PM, golgot said:

Why do EWR have pre-briefed HARM target codes if HARM are not supposed to deal with them?

EWR 1L13 S --> 101  and EWR 55G6 S --> 102

Shall I ask devs to remove these two target codes?

On 9/4/2022 at 2:41 PM, GhostOps1977 said:

Welp, the Sidearm can sure hit an EWR no problem.  Make of that what you will.

Tried and confirmed. Is the Sidearm supposed to strictly detect the same frequencies than the HARM? If so, I'll ask for a Sidearm fix.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Flappie
typo

[Hobel]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Flappie:

Shall I ask devs to remove these two target codes?

I wonder here where the codes come from? are these made up or are they also present in a real F16?

[QuiGon]

11 hours ago, Flappie said:

Shall I ask devs to remove these two target codes?

Well, if the HARM can't detect them, then I see no purpose in having these codes. They just cause confusion.

Edited September 10, 2022 by QuiGon

[Flappie]

Agreed. I'll talk to devs to ensure the whole game is updated accordingly.

[Nealius]

HARMS have been used to target EWRs in real life (El Dorado Canyon, 1986 being one example). Was this capability removed in the variant modeled in DCS? Or I could be misinterpreting accounts of that operation since Shrikes were also used together with the HARMs.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Nealius