How do you practice A/A Refueling?

[markturner1960]

Sorry, i have to say that a properly set up ( I mean with curves for some modules that need it) good quality joystick does make a huge difference. My upgrade path over the years has been from Cougar, to Warthog, to Virpil CM2, to Brunner CLSE FFB and each time, the precision and ease of use for re fueling has got better..........as the hardware quality increased. 

At the end of the day is simply a matter of practice until you get it....no short cuts really. It's a perishable skill and I make a point of practicing refueling in all my modules at least once a week.......

[Raisuli]

On 11/28/2022 at 5:21 PM, dburne said:

After all the hours I have logged in with the Hornet to date, AAR is still something I just can not do.

 

Neither can I, but I think the Chair Force has figured out that 'Return Precontact' actually causes the spar bolts to loosen a little every time they say it.  Probably some kind of resonance with their radios, because after enough of them a wing falls off.

In flames.

On 11/30/2022 at 8:55 AM, t1mb0b said:

A lot of overthinking here.

Fly in formation until you are comfortable doing that, then get closer.

That is all, there is no quicker or better way imo.

This is what I'm down to.  Much like crashing on a carrier there's no magic throttle setting, so stroke the throttle and back off the stick input before it has a chance to do anything.  My formations with the tanker look really good...from Mars.  Where I sit there is still a long way to go. 

I'm just fortunate that Israel, Lebanon, Syria, and Turkey don't mind me failing to refuel while the tanker flies a straight line though their air space.

As for the people who can refuel an F/A-18 inverted using only their keyboards and mice for input I think it was all just computer graphics...

[Hobel]

Am 11.9.2022 um 21:49 schrieb Rex:

I'm still having trouble AA refueling, mainly because the tanker refuses to give me ample time to practice.

Today, I had worked my way to within probably 2' of the basket, when the tanker said "Return Contact" and pulled the hose away.

For all of you who have mastered this skill, how did you set up your missions to make it happen?  The tanker seems absolutely obsessed with pulling the hose back in, and this disrupts the majority of my practice sessions.

Is there something I can tweak via config or script to force it to leave the hose out?

in my case good hardware like Virpil/WW/VKB and similar

I have played for a long time with X52 or with the Thrustmaster warthog joystick, I mean it is possible but compared to the other joystick mentioned significantly more difficult.

a good joystick makes all the difference!

Edited December 6, 2022 by Hobel

[M1Combat]

Practice makes permanent.  Not perfect.

 

Control issues aside the primary thing I've seen people do that prevents fueling is that they're being too gentle and slow near the basket.

Clearly you need to be precise but you aren't looking to just make it to the basket.  When I AAR I tend to catch the basket on my way into a tight formation with the fueler.  I probably sit about 2/3 hose length.

 

Don't watch the basket itself.  There's a good tutorial on what the sight picture needs to look like for the hornet at least.  Essentially a "glide slope" to the basket if you will...  It shows you where each of three of four things need to be as you approach.  Small chance it might be in Chuck's guide???  Maybe not.

 

Anyhow...  Don't try to match speed with tanker "too much" and then "creep" in on the basket.  Don't watch the basket directly.  Lots of people use the air-brake to fuel as it deadens the throttle a bit.

 

 

[dburne]

On 12/6/2022 at 10:32 AM, M1Combat said:

Anyhow...  Don't try to match speed with tanker "too much" and then "creep" in on the basket.  Don't watch the basket directly.  Lots of people use the air-brake to fuel as it deadens the throttle a bit.

 

Now there is an interesting take I have not tried. Being one that still has yet to successfully top off I will have to give that one a try thanks.

[Rex]

On 12/6/2022 at 7:17 AM, Hobel said:

in my case good hardware like Virpil/WW/VKB and similar

I have played for a long time with X52 or with the Thrustmaster warthog joystick, I mean it is possible but compared to the other joystick mentioned significantly more difficult.

a good joystick makes all the difference!

 

Cam you tell me which specific one you use?  I have the TM Warthog Stick/Throttles/Pedals.

I really like my Pendulum pedals and wouldn't change those for anything, but I'm open to finding a superior stick/throttle.

On a related note, now that the patent has expired (I think?), is anyone making FFB flight sticks again?

[Rex]

On 12/5/2022 at 4:48 AM, markturner1960 said:

Sorry, i have to say that a properly set up ( I mean with curves for some modules that need it) good quality joystick does make a huge difference. My upgrade path over the years has been from Cougar, to Warthog, to Virpil CM2, to Brunner CLSE FFB and each time, the precision and ease of use for re fueling has got better..........as the hardware quality increased. 

At the end of the day is simply a matter of practice until you get it....no short cuts really. It's a perishable skill and I make a point of practicing refueling in all my modules at least once a week.......

I happened to see this in your sig:

F/A-18C: Brunner FFB base with TM F-18 grip,

 

How do you like that base?  I've been wanting an FFB stick forever, especially for things like Condor and the WW2 planes (I don't imagine the FBW planes produce any FFB), and since that whole patent issue, they've been hard to come by.

That looks like a compelling base, although my wife will beat me if I spend that much on a flight stick (let's face it, sometimes there IS AN excuse for domestic violence, and I represent most of them)

Still, bruises heal ...

[Gruman]

2 hours ago, Rex said:

Cam you tell me which specific one you use?  I have the TM Warthog Stick/Throttles/Pedals.

I really like my Pendulum pedals and wouldn't change those for anything, but I'm open to finding a superior stick/throttle.

On a related note, now that the patent has expired (I think?), is anyone making FFB flight sticks again?

Your HOTAS is good enough for anything in DCS. But the Thrustmaster Warthog Stick (or rather the gimbal) has a tendency to be "sticky" on small movements. Multiple solution: Add an extension, regreasing the gimbal, or switch the base to a Virpil one. I would go for the extension first, since it has the biggest impact. Regreasing is a good option, if you had the stick for a long time and suspect it to be dirty (dust, debris etc). Virpil bases are great and work plug and play. I went for the extension & virpil base. Did it help with AAR? Maybe a little.

What does help with AAR? Proficiency with formation flying, dooing AAR a lot for short time ( 5min on every flight and then move on) and not get frustrated by this task. If the tanker is still flying after your unsuccessfull tries, than its a good start ;-).

Edited December 12, 2022 by Gruman

[Hobel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Rex:

Cam you tell me which specific one you use?  I have the TM Warthog Stick/Throttles/Pedals.

I really like my Pendulum pedals and wouldn't change those for anything, but I'm open to finding a superior stick/throttle.

On a related note, now that the patent has expired (I think?), is anyone making FFB flight sticks again?

The most important thing is the stick.  I use the WARBRD base from Virpil. 

[FMBluecher]

7 hours ago, Rex said:

Cam you tell me which specific one you use?  I have the TM Warthog Stick/Throttles/Pedals.

I really like my Pendulum pedals and wouldn't change those for anything, but I'm open to finding a superior stick/throttle.

On a related note, now that the patent has expired (I think?), is anyone making FFB flight sticks again?

I tried to clean up the stickiness in my Warthog stick, failed, and broke the base. Got a WARBRD base (as Hobel recommended) and wished I'd just done that in the first place. It is *vastly* superior to the Warthog base.

[BuzzLine]

Don't you find the Warbrd base + TM Warthog stick combination too wobbly ? Or did you use the extra-heavy springs ?

[zildac]

2 minutes ago, BuzzLine said:

Don't you find the Warbrd base + TM Warthog stick combination too wobbly ? Or did you use the extra-heavy springs ?

It's a good point, and it is more "wobbly" than the TM base for example, however this has never been an issue for me personally. I did try the heavier springs, but they were way too much for me. I only really got AAR down once I had the WarBRD base.

Edited December 12, 2022 by zildac

[rob10]

9 hours ago, zildac said:

It's a good point, and it is more "wobbly" than the TM base for example, however this has never been an issue for me personally. I did try the heavier springs, but they were way too much for me. I only really got AAR down once I had the WarBRD base.

 

I'll second these comments.  If it's sitting in front of me and I hit it, yes it jiggles.  That's never caused me any issue in actual use.  I too have to the light springs because that's what feels good to me.  It comes perfectly back to centre when it settles even if it is jiggly.

[frachy]

I've been practicing AAR using T16000m for one day and it was impossible to maintain connected. 

Then I switched to X65F Force Sensing Stick and done full AAR in about 2 or 3 tries.

Conclusion is the ability of fine adjustment near the stick middle position is very important for AAR, IRL the stick is very long, so you can do very precise adjustment.

For DCS, you can use a Force Sensing Stick, a long Stick, or add large curve for regular stick, but large curve suitable for AAR may not be good for normal flying.

A good equipment made the AAR 10 times easier.

Using the regular game stick doing AAR may be harder than IRL, yes you can do lots of practice to overcome it, but i do not think it is about the real thing.

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by frachy

[FMBluecher]

To second (third?) what rob10 and zildac said, the WarBRD base *seems* like it should be wobbly with the Warthog stick, and it does wobble--but only when I'm not actually flying with it. It's the weirdest thing. It seems like it should be a problem, but I've literally never noticed it while flying.

[scoobie]

On 11/28/2022 at 11:35 AM, atercygnus said:

Does anybody uses an axis tune over X and Y axis to make stick movements subtle? I found almost impossigble to do AAR without it, and pretty doable otherwise.

This one's tricky!
For reference: I have a non-extended TM Warthog joystick with main spring ripped out (only 4 small springs remain there).
Yes, lowering saturation (saturation Y) makes AAR easier ONCE you can AAR. At least for me, at least in A-10C.
Converesly, lowering saturation makes AAR harder if you still can't AAR and you're all over the place behind that tanker.

When I was learning (A-10C) I tried curves, saturation, this and that, and it didn't help at all. Not a tiniest bit, really.
Then I learnt how to AAR (boy did it hurt for an old-ish fart like me!) and only some time later I thought "hm... what if I lower saturation NOW?". I did. It helped. Joystick is less sensitive, but you (having learnt to AAR) are making only small errors, which require only small corrections and lowered saturation is no longer a problem. If you can't AAR, you're making BIG errors, which require BIG corrections and if your stick doesn't let you make them, you just flyyy awaaayyy. It makes learning harder, not easier, the plane is sluggish, won't move if you want it to. My own experience, YMMV.

Now, I use Joystick Gremlin either way, for lots of things, so I use JG also for this.
I tap "~" key on the keyboard and the response from my joystick, before it even "enters" DCS, gets cut by approximately 3 times. So if I deflect the stick to the limit, DCS only sees 1/3 of full deflection, OK? That's for the Hawg only. It's a huge lot, probably too much, but I don't care, it no longer matters. Once she's full, I tap "~" again and I regain 100% response from the joystick again. Easy.

For some other planes I don't use this trick at all, because I don't think I need it. Hornet is best example, she's polite. In Tomcat, I think I have like 2/3 of full response (not 1/3 as in the Hawg), but I'm not sure if I like it. I may get rid of it altogether, I'll see. IIRC the Viper doesn't need such tricks, either, as it has a "built-in Joystick Gremlin", the stick becomes less responsive on its own when you AAR. The Scooter - no need, no tricks (correction: I think I have roll axis "tuned", toned down, in DCS as she rolls like crazy out of the box, therefore I don't need any additional tricks outside of DCS). I don't fly other AAR-capable planes, so I can't tell.

On the other hand, if someone refuses to use such switchable joystick response patent, then I think AAR is not really worth it to scr*w your joystick response just for AAR. Especially in aircraft where you sometimes (or often) dogfight etc. So, throwing in a lot of FIXED curves (effective all the time) just for the occasional AAR seems a bad trade-off to me, let alone lowering Saturation Y.

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by scoobie

[SickSidewinder9]

I am having trouble with AAR woth the Hornet, and I'd swear the probe can pass through part of the drogue instead of getting deflected into the hose.  Really frustrating.

[rob10]

4 hours ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

I am having trouble with AAR woth the Hornet, and I'd swear the probe can pass through part of the drogue instead of getting deflected into the hose.  Really frustrating.

I assume that you are getting cleared for contact?  I've had sporadic instances where I've had to go to the opposite basket (i.e. I'm the only one flying so should be going to left, but have to go to the right to actually get contact).  Not a consistent problem, but confusing and looks like what you're talking about with drogue going thru the basket (as does forgetting to get cleared pre-contact ). 

[atercygnus]

В 13.12.2022 в 05:36, frachy сказал:

I've been practicing AAR using T16000m for one day and it was impossible to maintain connected. 

Then I switched to X65F Force Sensing Stick and done full AAR in about 2 or 3 tries.

Conclusion is the ability of fine adjustment near the stick middle position is very important for AAR, IRL the stick is very long, so you can do very precise adjustment.

For DCS, you can use a Force Sensing Stick, a long Stick, or add large curve for regular stick, but large curve suitable for AAR may not be good for normal flying.

A good equipment made the AAR 10 times easier.

Using the regular game stick doing AAR may be harder than IRL, yes you can do lots of practice to overcome it, but i do not think it is about the real thing

I'm using T16000m currently, and it works fine for me. I found I can AAR with little curves(15). With T.FLIGHT I need 35. Not sure if it's about joystick or practice. Also, I'm heavily using ATC during refueling. It can stabilize your speed at desired value. If you struggling with your throttle, this should help.

I suppose this will be great if hornet can set desired cruise speed for ATC using UFC, not only maintain current speed. Hornet does not have his feature, thou.

Edited December 14, 2022 by atercygnus

[TimRobertsen]

 

[Steel Jaw]

On 12/3/2022 at 12:19 PM, rob10 said:

I would disagree with that.  The S-3 vs the KC-130 have very different turbulence coming off them when in position to refuel (in DCS anyway).  I'm very good at AAR, but the S-3 is trickier.

I find the Viking trickier in that the hose is much shorter andso less latitude in position.

[SickSidewinder9]

19 hours ago, rob10 said:

I assume that you are getting cleared for contact?  I've had sporadic instances where I've had to go to the opposite basket (i.e. I'm the only one flying so should be going to left, but have to go to the right to actually get contact).  Not a consistent problem, but confusing and looks like what you're talking about with drogue going thru the basket (as does forgetting to get cleared pre-contact ). 

I think so.

And this is with the S-3 which, as others have mentioned, is a bit tricky.

Had some better luck with some more practice.  Jumping forward with purpose seems to help.  What's hard is that there's very little verbal instruction or info from the tanker.  If they're pattern is anything other than Orbit, they will just start turning or straighten out without any warning, which also seems to come with a slight change in speed.

 

And for those saying it's the controller:  it's not.  I did AAR in the Viper with a 3d Pro.  Some setup like dead zones and curves and getting used to it might be required, but I wouldn't say upgrading to an X56 made much, if any, difference.

(Now comes all the people who <profanity> on the X56.  We get it.  It's not worth the MSRP.  Good thing I didn't pay it.  It's fine.  It works fine.  Bigger difference was probably change in monitor)

 

Anyway, in America we say "a poor carpenter blames their tools."

It's not your controller.

[CobraKhan]

"Control issues aside the primary thing I've seen people do that prevents fueling is that they're being too gentle and slow near the basket."   ....   "Anyhow...  Don't try to match speed with tanker "too much" and then "creep" in on the basket.  Don't watch the basket directly.  Lots of people use the air-brake to fuel as it deadens the throttle a bit."

Here is one that I don’t necessarily agree with; it may simply be my interpretation of the written post against the idea that this thread is directed toward the novice pilot who has not (or rarely is) able to refuel.  Regardless of experience, my opinion is that the successful guys will all be smooth and controlled.  I believe that any radical, jerky, uncontrolled movements with either the left hand or the right hand will likely result in non-success.  You need to be smooth and controlled with both hands; both the flight stick and the throttle – smooth and controlled is what the successful guys have in common.

An experienced guy may be able to ingress upon the tanker at perhaps 7 to 15 kts faster, throw out their speed break at the precise moment, back off on the throttle perfectly, glide right into the basket and hear the game tell them “Your Taking Fuel”, all in a Smooth and Controlled fashion!  Further, they will have it work out perfect at a speed that they continue to stay hooked up!  I absolutely do not doubt that such a thing is performed frequently by many. I don’t however believe that this is a technique in which the novice pilot, particularly one who struggles with refueling is going to pull off successfully. Likely the gentleman who posted doesn't think that either, but rather my read of the post, so I apologize in advance.

It is my opinion, and my opinion is not worth more than anyone is paying for it on this internet chat forum, but my opinion is that the novice guy would be better off initially forming up behind the basket (maybe 20 feet back and 10 feet low), match aircraft speed with the basket speed, then push into the basket in a smooth and controlled fashion. Smooth and controlled may, or may not, be the same definition as "creep", they are kind of subjective terms.  In my view, pushing into the basket would be at a rate of approximately 1 kt (to maybe 2 kts) faster than the basket is travelling, starting somewhere about 10 feet below and climbing into the basket; that would meet what my definition of “smooth and controlled” is for the typical novice pilot struggling to refuel. 

I would view a 4 kts closure speed, or a 6 kts closure speed, or even faster to not likely be within my definition of smooth and controlled even if outward appearances initially looked to be very smooth.  Reasoning; for a novice pilot, those closure speeds are fast enough that it will often make them push way forward, too close to the tanker, after which they will then radically reduce the throttle, after which they will radically get back into the power. Ultimately, the result is porpoising forward and back. We typically think a porpoise movement being vertical, but too much power and then out of the throttle, causes it in a horizontal motion.  A novice will get into the basket, but then dump right back out, which doesn't help!  This it is based upon what I was doing wrong for almost a year, struggling to stay in the basket due to an incorrect closure speed for my skill level; eventually, I received solid coaching.

To the novice guy who is struggling, what is your definition of smooth and controlled?  Well, if you are struggling, reduce that definition down to tighter tolerances!  Relax your muscles, relax your mindset, and fly with confidence.  Take your feet off of the pedals, put your head back against the headrest of your chair, center your Track IR, take a deep breath and with very little movement of either hand fly the jet in a smooth and controlled fashion.

Godspeed Gentleman!  And Merry Christmas!

[jaylw314]

On 12/14/2022 at 6:14 AM, Steel Jaw said:

I find the Viking trickier in that the hose is much shorter andso less latitude in position.

True, but the smaller tanker means your visual position cues are more precise.  If you move 3 feet, the S-3 looks obviously different, while the KC-135 looks pretty much the same.

[jaylw314]

On 12/14/2022 at 1:39 PM, CobraKhan said:

"Control issues aside the primary thing I've seen people do that prevents fueling is that they're being too gentle and slow near the basket."   ....   "Anyhow...  Don't try to match speed with tanker "too much" and then "creep" in on the basket.  Don't watch the basket directly.  Lots of people use the air-brake to fuel as it deadens the throttle a bit."

Here is one that I don’t necessarily agree with; it may simply be my interpretation of the written post against the idea that this thread is directed toward the novice pilot who has not (or rarely is) able to refuel.  Regardless of experience, my opinion is that the successful guys will all be smooth and controlled.  I believe that any radical, jerky, uncontrolled movements with either the left hand or the right hand will likely result in non-success.  You need to be smooth and controlled with both hands; both the flight stick and the throttle – smooth and controlled is what the successful guys have in common.

The way I visualize learning is like balancing something on your finger.   When you start out, it's almost impossible to balance it by keeping your hand in the right position.  Instead, you start by swinging your hand back and forth in large movements in a rhythm.  As you improve, that back-and-forth movement gets smaller and smaller, and the rhythm gets faster, until eventually a skilled balancer looks like they're (almost) standing still in the correct position.  However, in their brain, they are still going through that oscillation, just with small movements and fast pace.

So I actually suggest people start out with large, maybe even exaggerated movements of the stick and throttle.  As long as they're opposed by the opposite movements, it allows some station-keeping for beginners.  That allows them to get started, and then the focus becomes reducing the amplitude and increasing the frequency of those movements.