Deka Simulations announces the DCS: J-8II for DCS World!

[MK84]

14 hours ago, uboats said:

but j-8f ai can carry pl-12

 

[Mars Exulte]

6 hours ago, Ash Lynx said:

The only question i ask about all this is, does Deka have all the relevant documentation to faithfully represent the proper integration of these western avionics.

 No, they probably just made this decision randomly after binging Saved by the Bell for the last three years. Thank god we have the internet to rush forward and ask the real questions nobody considered. In fact, I'm thinking they secretly chose this model just because they enjoy torturing the community.

 

 

 On another note, I remember during the discussions about a follow up to the Jf-17 this plane was a contending project a long time ago. Personally, I think it's an interesting choice, and seems like it's pretty similar (in principle) to an Su-15. Look forward to your work, Deka!

 

[RPY Variable]

5 hours ago, AdrianL said:

Because it is the only way you will get any Chinese aircraft.

Unless you would like to go talk to the Chinese government to try change their current information policies.

Do you have the source of that statement from a relevant person (not moderators)?

[Akiazusa]

You completely forget how DCS World started,or the first aircraft in game with Advanced Flight Model back in Lock On times.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Akiazusa

[Rudel_chw]

13 hours ago, Ydjslm said:

Can't understand why ED approved J-8PP.

And I can’t understand why it bothers you so much … if you don’t want the module just don’t purchase it, but bickering about it is so pointless … 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Rudel_chw

[Stackup]

15 minutes ago, RPY Variable said:

Do you have the source of that statement from a relevant person (not moderators)?

Who exactly is relevant?  Nineline and Deka have both said that this is the only J-8 they can legally get the information required to complete the module.  It's easy enough to make an informed statement about the availabilty, or in this case lack, of information related to various aircraft from both Russia and China.  If it wasn't a problem to get info on Eastern aircraft, we would already have a FF MiG-29 and Su-27 since there is great demand for these aircraft.  ED planned to make the earliest MiG-29 variant but that fell through due to lack of cooperation from the Russian government, probably among other things.  Deka, I believe has wanted to do an Su-30, but lack of information has stalled that project as well.

[Dragon1-1]

It only looks like a Su-15, which was a specialized interceptor for the PVO with not much in terms of dogfighting capabilities, but extensive GCI datalink. It was basically meant to be flown remotely from the ground, with lights telling the pilot exactly what to do and when. The J-8PP is a multirole jet with Western avionics, much closer in concept to the MiG-23.

[Hiob]

Couldn’t care less. Why even bother to scratch your head about it. Simply don’t buy it when you’re not interested. What’s so hard about ignoring things you don’t care for? Sale numbers will speak for themselves I guess.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Hiob

[Silver_Dragon]

Someone missing some projecs with ended by legal problems, as some 3rd parties some years ago, intent get a A-4 module aproval or the tean with intent build a T-22M module and end them by some political problems, or a F-14D or a F/A-18E block III module.... building modules has none a "Make them now", that require a aproval by some civil / military staments and surely governs... 

[JohnMclane]

What I like the most about DCS is that I can make it whatever I want it to be, and that there's usually enough people with the same preferences as I do to build a community around those. There's no one twisting anyone's arm to include J-8ii's in their missions, campaigns or servers, you're free to do whatever you like with that module once its up and running. I feel like if DCS/3rd party has the data to to build a flyable module, Im fine with it. If it'll make some people happy, all the better.

 

[Bremspropeller]

52 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It only looks like a Su-15, which was a specialized interceptor for the PVO with not much in terms of dogfighting capabilities, but extensive GCI datalink. It was basically meant to be flown remotely from the ground, with lights telling the pilot exactly what to do and when. The J-8PP is a multirole jet with Western avionics, much closer in concept to the MiG-23.

The J-8 and Su-15 are very similar in dimensions and weight and they share the same basic engine - the R-13/ WP-13. The major external difference is the double-delta on the Su-15TM.

I'd expect them to be ballpark-comparable in terms of performance.

 

 

[Dragon1-1]

The engines are similar, but not quite the same, after the Sino-Soviet split the designs diverged somewhat. I think the version in the J-8PP has more thrust. Also, a different wing is kind of a big deal. Plus, avionics are very different. It could be in the same ballpark, but nothing more.

[Mars Exulte]

1 hour ago, Stackup said:

Who exactly is relevant?  Nineline and Deka have both said that this is the only J-8 they can legally get the information required to complete the module.  

 Yes, but they didn't provide a notarized statement to him and other relevant legal authorities personally.

[RPY Variable]

1 hour ago, Stackup said:

Who exactly is relevant?  Nineline and Deka have both said that this is the only J-8 they can legally get the information required to complete the module.  It's easy enough to make an informed statement about the availabilty, or in this case lack, of information related to various aircraft from both Russia and China.  If it wasn't a problem to get info on Eastern aircraft, we would already have a FF MiG-29 and Su-27 since there is great demand for these aircraft.  ED planned to make the earliest MiG-29 variant but that fell through due to lack of cooperation from the Russian government, probably among other things.  Deka, I believe has wanted to do an Su-30, but lack of information has stalled that project as well.

Nineline said he was no speaking on behalf Deka, so lets cross that one out.

I only would like to read the source, so I can come to my own conclusions. Do you have the Deka source??

[Stackup]

10 minutes ago, RPY Variable said:

Do you have the Deka source??

The official Deka source would be the fact that they picked the J-8PP and not the J-8F or some other variant.  From what I understand, they are based in China and want to bring Chinese aircraft into DCS.  It really takes no speculation to determine that they would have preferred to do one of the more prolific variants, but settled for one that would not result in legal troubles.

AFAIK besides what Nineline and Uboats (although I assume you think he doesn't matter since he has the title of moderator), no word beyond the newsletter has been released.  That being said, it doesn't take a statement from Deka to realize that the Chinese government is not a fan of allowing their technological information to be used by others and so a variant with Chinese avionics is out of the question unless they change their policies.

[RPY Variable]

1 hour ago, Stackup said:

The official Deka source would be the fact that they picked the J-8PP and not the J-8F or some other variant.  From what I understand, they are based in China and want to bring Chinese aircraft into DCS.  It really takes no speculation to determine that they would have preferred to do one of the more prolific variants, but settled for one that would not result in legal troubles.

AFAIK besides what Nineline and Uboats (although I assume you think he doesn't matter since he has the title of moderator), no word beyond the newsletter has been released.  That being said, it doesn't take a statement from Deka to realize that the Chinese government is not a fan of allowing their technological information to be used by others and so a variant with Chinese avionics is out of the question unless they change their policies.

So no source, just speculation. The answer was simpler -> "I'm speculating and I don't have a source"

I have no problem with you speculating, but don't say it as if it were a revealed truth. Because what I see is that everyone is repeating this argument like parrots, but it's not so clear that this is the case. At least not by an official source. That's why I was asking for a source, because maybe I had miss something and I wanted to know.

I can also speculate that, maybe deka chose this one because it was more modern and they thought it would sell better than an older plane without an INS, or better radar, or any other advantage that this plane has over an older version. I mean... since we are in the field of speculation.

And I'll let you know that my position is that I'd rather have the Ka-50 than have nothing.

[Stackup]

1 hour ago, RPY Variable said:

So no source, just speculation. The answer was simpler -> "I'm speculating and I don't have a source"

I have a source, just not one you accept.  Based on the wording of @uboats answers, I would say he is the closest thing to an official source from Deka than nothing.  He has repeatedly used "we" in his statements concerning development and has posted answers to pretty much every post concerning it.  That's good enough for me, even if it isn't for you.

[Torbernite]

 

The J-8 and Su-15 are very similar in dimensions and weight and they share the same basic engine - the R-13/ WP-13. The major external difference is the double-delta on the Su-15TM.

I'd expect them to be ballpark-comparable in terms of performance.

 

 

If you just want a rough succedaneum in your mission to dress up as a Su-15, I think J-8 could be a choice. But the mission must be edited carefully to avoid the goof.

The radar from J-8, either APG-66 or the J-8F ones, is better than Su-15, at least the early variants (I don't know whether the later Taifun radar uses envelop-detection or doppler method). But J-8 doesn't have a datalink or GCI system like Su-15 (that doesn't matter, it's not very possible to reproduce such a system in DCS). And J-8 uses better medium range missiles (PL-11/12) than old AA-3. J-8 doesn't have double-delta wings, but it has the leading-edge conical camber so the subsonic performance could be different.

If you want to make such a mission, J-8's interception must be limited to lower range (better if you could get a mod to use downgraded old missiles or even tune the radar performance, or just remove the med-range as a J-8B) and also avoid its dogfight. Then maybe it could be a good actor in your mission.

[Torbernite]

MiG-21bis could have the criticized Kh-66 and CCIP, Spanish Mirage F1 could have never equipped S530F payload, C-101 could use its tested-only sea eagle, Ka-50III could have the transplanted pylons from Ka-52, M2000C could be speculated at first and got the chance of later perfection.

And Deka is not allowed to make a fully tested, documented, real plane available and the only legal subtype to make? 

Politely I shouldn't conjecture but I have been always feeling that some of us get especially strict when same thing turns to Deka.

[NineLine]

19 hours ago, Ydjslm said:

Can't understand why ED approved J-8PP.

Because they met the standards required to model the aircraft. Its as simple as that. 

[NineLine]

19 hours ago, Capn kamikaze said:

Ok, so DCS needs to change its name to DCG then, and allow anything.

You are still required to provide enough information to model the aircraft to the degree that DCS demands, they are able to do this here. Thanks. 

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

So excited to so disappointed in about 10 seconds. We still don't have the most produced 3rd gen plane types. That's what I'm interested in.  

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Nothing brings out the man-baby like irksome things in a video game.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

It was to vex you.

[yuck32]

i am an admirer of deka ironwork work, but i have to say this is the least exciting aircraft they could have taken from the list , would have been much more interesting an Q-5 or an j-7 (even better an F7MG or PG). Maybe Chinese players are happy to fly on the first indigenous aircraft… but the electronics are more Americans than anything else

 

but the positive side is that such an aircraft with American electronics arouses some interest

Edited February 12, 2023 by yuck32