High end hotas - which one and why?

[BaronVonVaderham]

Apologies if this question has been asked before, but I’m interested in hearing more about the various high end hotas options and how they compare. 
I’m aware of some, like the Thrustmaster warthog setup which has been around a couple of centuries now I also am aware of Virpil, winwing, and vkb. 
there may be more high end hotas systems, which I would love to hear about. 
 

My specific interest is how they compare in use, ergonomics, practicality, quality, resilience, expandable/adaptability, price/value ratio, etc. 

perhaps there is a sticky/pinned post I’ve missed, in which case feel free to just provide a link to the relevant thread. 

[Mik75]

After many years with the Saitek X55, I got myself the TM Warthog some weeks ago. And the difference is huge! I totally love the look and feel of it. The stick is made out of metal and feels like the real deal. And the super heavy and exact throttle has metal shielding, where you touch it with your hand. The switches, buttons and hats on throttle and stick are also very robust and feel very high quality! The base of the Wathog is pretty stiff, and as I love flying helis as well, I've ordered a Virpil WARBRD-D base. The TM Warthog stick connects perfectly to the Virpil base. For me personally, the Virpil sticks and trottle (completely made out of plastic on the outside) are no option. But I'm really looking forward to trying out the base. Its mechanism is very versatile (adjustable clutch, etc) and a thing of beauty! I might add something that offers a few more additional buttons and axis to my setup in the future. (Something like this: https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-sharka-50-control-panel.html)

Edited May 11, 2023 by Mik75

[Minhal]

Hey there. The ones you mention are tbh more in the mid-range class. High end would be Realsimulator or TRC components for example.

You can expect those mid-range products to be of way better quality and accuracy than the regular 100 bucks supermarket joysticks. But each brand definitely got weak spots. Can only speak for Thrustmaster HOTAS as i own one, their outer components are sturdy high quality but their inside (on throttle as well as stick) are plastic and last depending on usage. All the screw mountings on the throttle are brittle plastic for example. Tightened one a tiny bit too much and everything broke. Lubricant in the sticks gimbal is cheap and began to get sticky after about a year. Insides are also not sanded and got bumpy spots that impact smoothness and accuracy. So i had to disassemble, sand, clean and regrease. Still okay for that price, but to be kept in mind if one wants real high quality. This comes at an extra cost.

[LucShep]

Both VKB and Virpil are, of course, very good. Especially with more than one base, grips, extensions and parts to choose from, you're able to get a flight stick to your own desires.
Virpil has also the outstanding MongoosT-50CM3 throttle. 

But, bang for the buck (and unless if hardcore user) for a HOTAS combo, I find it hard to justify anything beyond the WinWing Orion 2 HOTAS and the TM Warthog HOTAS.

Edited May 11, 2023 by LucShep

[Mik75]

Well, it depends, right? For me personally, this setup (will be around 1.000 EUR when finished) is high end. And I love flying with it. There are TM Warthog HOTAS out there that worked flawlessly for many many  years. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Mik75

[Minhal]

For your initial question: it really depends on what you plan to fly i think. A lot of aircraft specific products like the A-10, F-16 or F-18 throttles or Ka-50 cyclic are available from only a single manufacturer in that price segment (or from one at all). So if you plan to fly a dedicated aircraft, choice is often "buy this or leave it". If you plan on being flexible and getting something more generic, you got to pick your poison in the mid-range (as, like said, each brand has their weakness and what is tolerable is quite individual).

[Minhal]

4 minutes ago, Mik75 said:

Well, it depends, right? For me personally, this setup (will be around 1.000 EUR when finished) is high end. And I love flying with it. There are TM Warthog HOTAS out there that worked flawlessly for many many  years. 

 

Not really. High end is not defined on individual-customer perception. High-end has superior quality, materials and service, comes at a price and due to this is targeted at a small, well defined customer group. If you are happy with a mid-range product, this is all fine. But it does not make it a high-end product.

[Mik75]

50 minutes ago, Minhal said:

Not really. High end is not defined on individual-customer perception. High-end has superior quality, materials and service, comes at a price and due to this is targeted at a small, well defined customer group. If you are happy with a mid-range product, this is all fine. But it does not make it a high-end product.

And that's true for the TM Warthog and Virpil products, in my opinion. 

But nevermind, I just wanted to give an answer, or my opinion on the original question. 

[Beirut]

I'm still looking at the Warthog stick but it ain't free and my Thrustmaster T16000 is actually pretty decent. But for the F-15E the Warthog would be great with all those buttons. 

[Minhal]

1 hour ago, Mik75 said:

And that's true for the TM Warthog and Virpil products, in my opinion. 

But nevermind, I just wanted to give an answer, or my opinion on the original question. 

Yeah, no bad feelings  I was just looking to be technically precise because OP might look for "real" high-end products and mistake the mid-range ones for such. Simply by not knowing about the higher-tier products. All the mid-range brands imho are worth their price and are definitely a big upgrade to the entry level ones. But if you are looking for and can afford high-end, it is important to have everything put in the correct box to avoid disappointment due to false expectations.

[MADLOU1]

Personally my greatest desired flight stick is one with force feedback.  I may be wrong, but I don't think those are being made anymore due to some kind of patent issue.  As a result,  I'm still using the long obsolete but excellent force feedback  Microsoft Sidewinder 2.   I have two of them that are centuries old but work like a charm.

[dburne]

 I have slowly migrated to Virpil now for my stick and throttle - also have their collective for my Apache flying.

I have the CM3 throttle, the CM3 stick base with Virpil  Alpha Prime (metal) grip, and Virpil  Rotor TCS along with Alpha -L grip.

I love this setup very much, been running the throttle couple of years now, the collective close to  about a year, and the CM3 stick base with Alpha Prime grip for two-three  months now. They all have very nice adjustability and are rock solid. I would consider these to be "high end" devices.

[Art-J]

2 hours ago, MADLOU1 said:

Personally my greatest desired flight stick is one with force feedback.  I may be wrong, but I don't think those are being made anymore due to some kind of patent issue.  As a result,  I'm still using the long obsolete but excellent force feedback  Microsoft Sidewinder 2.   I have two of them that are centuries old but work like a charm.

As far as I know, patent issue is no longer an issue, fortunately, but mainstream manufacturers are not really in hurry to start working on FFB stick designs again. We're all a minuscule market compared to racing sim enthusists after all.

Some small-scale production, "boutique" solutions start popping up, though. VP Force Rhino comes to mind as an example.

[BaronVonVaderham]

Lots of food for thought. 
indeed I may not be aware of high end or upper market devices as said in the thread. 

I want something solid. So I’m looking for metal units and solid mechanisms that can be maintained and/or adjusted if/ when needed. 
 

As for what I fly, I plan to go for f-16 and f-18 predominantly. I might do something with warbirds too. 
for pedals I’m pretty sure I go for the big TM units. 

[Sr.]

If I had that kind of cash for a stick.

 

 

[Hiob]

For quality, maintainability, options, and ways to customize, I can recommend VKB and Virpil. If you want a replica grip, you can use a warthog grip with their bases.

[BaronVonVaderham]

Lots of food for thought. 
indeed I may not be aware of high end or upper market devices as said in the thread. 

I want something solid. So I’m looking for metal units and solid mechanisms that can be maintained and/or adjusted if/ when needed. 
 

As for what I fly, I plan to go for f-16 and f-18 predominantly. I might do something with warbirds too. 
for pedals I’m pretty sure I go for the big TM units. 
 

so Virgil seems to have an alpha prime grip that’s metal, but it did not represent an aircraft that I know, or intend to fly in dcs. Their bases seem interesting though, especially the end one. I just might get a TM stick for starters, and upgrade the base when needed. 
that leaves the throttle assembly. I like winwing because it looks like the base is the same for the f18  and f16 configurations, with the grip being the difference. On the f16 version they tie both throttle channels together physically. Don’t know if it is plastic or metal though. benefit is that if I want to expand to other winwing modules, it should be easily adaptable. 

[Dragon1-1]

7 hours ago, BaronVonVaderham said:

Don’t know if it is plastic or metal though.

It's metal, and it feels really great. Grips and mechanics are all metal, throttle case is plastic, but that's it. Winwing has amazing hat switches, something no other manufacturer even attempts to do right. Others use four microswitches around a shaft, while Winwing switches have long travel, much like real aircraft ones. Thanks to this, they feel really nice.

Also, from what I heard Warthog throttles have a really terrible TDC. Winwing has a regular microstick. IRL it's actually a force transducer, like a laptop mouse (albeit much more rugged), but I don't know of any manufacturer that'd use something similar.

[BitMaster]

You can use the TM F-16 & F-18 grips on many other vendors base's. The TM base is not what it should be and it's one thing I dislike on my own gear. I guess I need to put new grease in

etc...  not fond of it.

[Dragon1-1]

I heard about it, Winwing has a TM adapter and really neat progressive cams, I love the Orion base (not an Orion 2, but by default differences are limited) for that reason, really precise center that makes AAR, or flying a Spitfire, a breeze. 

[Biggus]

The only high end thing about the Warthog is the price for what you get. 

The throttle is a pretty decent product.  The stick is of reasonable quality.  The gimbal is not good.  If you truly want something that is representative of something from a fourth generation US fighter, Winwing is the answer.  I've got an original Orion and it has been excellent.  My main stick right now is the Warthog on a WarBRD only because I use the Viper more often, but the Orion stick is truly great quality.

Anyone buying TM products today should be aware of how poor their support is.  My last experience was two weeks between emails.  That's two weeks to get an initial response, then another two weeks for their next response.  All told, it was around six weeks before the replacement switch was finally posted.  If my issue had been less straightforward, I shudder to think about how long it might have taken.

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:23 PM, BaronVonVaderham said:

Lots of food for thought. 
indeed I may not be aware of high end or upper market devices as said in the thread. 

I want something solid. So I’m looking for metal units and solid mechanisms that can be maintained and/or adjusted if/ when needed. 
 

As for what I fly, I plan to go for f-16 and f-18 predominantly. I might do something with warbirds too. 
for pedals I’m pretty sure I go for the big TM units. 
 

so Virgil seems to have an alpha prime grip that’s metal, but it did not represent an aircraft that I know, or intend to fly in dcs. Their bases seem interesting though, especially the end one. I just might get a TM stick for starters, and upgrade the base when needed. 
that leaves the throttle assembly. I like winwing because it looks like the base is the same for the f18  and f16 configurations, with the grip being the difference. On the f16 version they tie both throttle channels together physically. Don’t know if it is plastic or metal though. benefit is that if I want to expand to other winwing modules, it should be easily adaptable. 

You can get better pedals for less money of "the big TM units", Virpil and especially MFG Crosswinds come to my mind.

25 minutes ago, Biggus said:

The throttle is a pretty decent product.  The stick is of reasonable quality.  The gimbal is not good

I fully concur. If a budget is a thing, get a Virpil or Winwing base, and find throttle and Warthog stick.

[Dragon1-1]

Why not a Winwing stick? It's got better hats than Warthog, and the F-16 one has more functionality, including an analog paddle for when you need a pneumatic brake. I don't think it makes sense to mix and match too much. 

[DishDoggie]

Lots of Good input no one is wrong and opinions are just that even mine. You need to decide what level you fall into. you may go low end midrange or high end. I went low end x56 Rhino (lots of issues) then went Thrustmaster Hotas (Big Mistake) Ball and socket joysticks with low grade grease are problematic and just start to degrade. So The "Realsimulator" without ever using it and just watching people talk about it I will say is the Top of the Top you can go. WinWing and Virpil Gear In My Opinion would be next. From what I have seen and Judged on my Own VKB has a High End and low end But the High End units will fall next. WinWing and Virpil both offer DEEP DIVES into Gear Areas Joystick GRIPS Joystick BASE Not sold together Switch Panels, Helicopter Collective Base, Collective Grips. so ask yourself how deep do you want to go? I went all Virpil gear till it came to Rudder pedals DON'T forget about Rudder Pedals. I went with MFG Crosswind and love them. WinWing's Switch Take off and landing Panels are modeled after a F/A-18 and I found them to be not as universal as Virpils Control Panels. I love the Precision delivered to inputs and the Masterful Quality of Ball Bearing cam & spring parts. well suited for Prop and Jet operations My Virpil Gear Deliver. I own 6 of the Virpil Gear models Joystick Grip and a Base, Collective Base and a Grip, Throttle, Switch Panel #1 Best of luck and happy purchase on what you buy.

[MADLOU1]

What I personally need is a very good but reasonably priced helicopter cyclic and collective.