what's going on with the pitch control?

[Rongor]

I didn't yet manage a takeoff without oscillating pitch angle after rotating. Also this doesn't get much better during cruise.

Whenever I do pitch inputs with the stick, there is some odd reaction into the opposite direction after a few seconds. This is not happening with roll inputs.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Rongor

[eFirehawk]

I'm wondering the same thing and would love to know as well.

[Burt]

Yeah I noticed it too, but it's a very new release still in testing and a lot updates going forward. I'm sure everything will get ironed out as time goes by cause these guys rock and one of the best on the team. 

[Vakarian]

Are you guys maybe seeing something like this?

 

[ameriveaux]

For me its sort of like the FC3 Su27 or Mig29  or even the F16 if you use a non FBSS stick, the sensitivity and pitch behavior seems twitchy , you pull a little and the nose snaps up then sort of oscillates back to where it was - the Mirage , AV8B -F14 don't do this and the Mirage F1 does but its so miniscule I dont think about it.

[BMO]

+1 same for me, did a first familiarisation flight on the weekend and started without any curves on the axis.

[ravencio]

I ve noticed that too. Manual says that you should move one half stick aft at rotation speed, as you probably know. I ve been trying the last few days and if you release the joystick to it’s neutral position as soon as you feel the nose is high enough for the aircraft to leave the ground, makes it a really smooth take off with a 10-12 degrees attitude. 
 

i haven’t test it much during cruise. I am learning the basics first

Edited June 27, 2023 by ravencio

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Indeed, I even went back to some older YT videos of preview builds and all of the take-offs are jittery as well.
To me this looks like something that needs to be fixed: all other aircraft in DCS take off perfectly smoothly (including the F-15C).

It seems the pitch-onset between "no input" and "just a little input" is far too sudden.

[Rainmaker]

2 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Indeed, I even went back to some older YT videos of preview builds and all of the take-offs are jittery as well.
To me this looks like something that needs to be fixed: all other aircraft in DCS take off perfectly smoothly (including the F-15C).

It seems the pitch-onset between "no input" and "just a little input" is far too sudden.

Pitch ratio is at it's max with the gear down.  Most people that I see having issues are PIOing themselves because they are chasing the aircraft, they are not ahead of it.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

So the current behaviour is correct? If so, it's unlike any other aircraft in DCS and will requires some serious getting used to, especially for take-off and AAR...

(Perhaps it's not as noticeable with a TM Warthog, but I have a Virpil stick and it feels like there will be a 5 degree change in pitch if a mosquito bumps into it...)

[sirrah]

1 minute ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

(Perhaps it's not as noticeable with a TM Warthog, ...

Oh yes it is

 

Using a TM Warthog here and take-off is indeed quite a weird experience. As others mentioned, no smooth transition from weight on wheels to weight off wheels, but a sudden oscillating behavior. Even when not touching the stick when the aircraft starts rotating (basically ruling out PIO).

Personally, I only experience this behavior on take-off. After that, when airborne, all is back to normal (slightly twitchy pitch, but just a matter of getting used to)

 

So, did anyone at all manage a smooth take-off in the F-15E? Because if so, I must be doing something wrong (if I only knew what though )

[AhSoul]

I don't think I've noticed this on take-off. IIRC it's been smooth. But I have noticed the oscillation during normal flight.

[av8orDave]

33 minutes ago, sirrah said:

Oh yes it is

 

Using a TM Warthog here and take-off is indeed quite a weird experience. As others mentioned, no smooth transition from weight on wheels to weight off wheels, but a sudden oscillating behavior. Even when not touching the stick when the aircraft starts rotating (basically ruling out PIO).

Personally, I only experience this behavior on take-off. After that, when airborne, all is back to normal (slightly twitchy pitch, but just a matter of getting used to)

 

So, did anyone at all manage a smooth take-off in the F-15E? Because if so, I must be doing something wrong (if I only knew what though )

I agree, it is almost like the nose wheel is "sticky", and the back pressure releases the wheel from the ground all at once resulting in a sudden pitch-up movement.

[WizzRD]

2 hours ago, sirrah said:

So, did anyone at all manage a smooth take-off in the F-15E? Because if so, I must be doing something wrong (if I only knew what though

Add 10 kts to the published TO speed and you´ll take off by the book.

At rotation speed stick half way back and as soon the nose comes off the ground stick back to neutral. Right after hitting the gear lever start dialing down the TO trim and establish 10-12° flyout attitude. Works for me at all gross weights.

[Rainmaker]

  Watch the pilots right arm during rotation and how stick pressure is released once rotation starts to catch the nose.  

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

2 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

stick pressure is released once rotation starts to catch the nose

Yes that's what I do in all aircraft, but in the DCS F-15E it seems the nose gear shock rebound is rocket-assisted 
In other words, it seems there is a built-in 10 degrees negative curve on the pitch axis. Roll is perfectly fine.

For now I'll be testing a 10 degree positive curve on pitch... I shouldn't need to have it though, since I have a 200mm extension and the CM2 stick is pretty long by itself...

[Rainmaker]

29 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Yes that's what I do in all aircraft, but in the DCS F-15E it seems the nose gear shock rebound is rocket-assisted 
In other words, it seems there is a built-in 10 degrees negative curve on the pitch axis. Roll is perfectly fine.

For now I'll be testing a 10 degree positive curve on pitch... I shouldn't need to have it though, since I have a 200mm extension and the CM2 stick is pretty long by itself...

 

I know which point you are probably referring to.  The NW is already off the ground by that point.  I am going to bring that part up to the FM person to ask him to make sure there are not any sudden gains somewhere in the FM.  Can't speak to whether it will be noted as being correct as is or not.  The jet is naturally pitch sensitive.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Rainmaker

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

42 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

I am going to bring that part up to the FM person to ask him to make sure there are not any sudden gains somewhere in the FM.

Thank you! If needed, you can watch some of the content creators' YT videos for reference: when they take off the nose "suddenly jumps up" as well, and I'd assume most of them are proficient enough these days in DCS to know how to take off smoothly.
If the amount of stick travel (as far as that translates to what we arm-chair pilots use) vs the number of degrees of control surface deflection correlates with the real thing, we will have to adapt. If not, it would be great to have that corrected
 

  

42 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

The jet is naturally pitch sensitive.

More so than the F-15C as modelled by ED? In the FC3 bird I don't need a curve for pitch, and I assume the PFM is correct there.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Raven (Elysian Angel)
addendum

[Nealius]

Warthog on a 20cm extension here and I notice the same. In-flight it's easy to counter but takeoffs can be dicy. I've noticed the same pitch behavior on takeoff in the F1 and MiG-21. I might try the slight pitch curve as well, since that helped a lot for me with other pitch-sensitive aircraft like the F1, MiG-21, Mosquito, and P-47. 

As for the FC3 F-15C modeling, I recall an SME had posted something about errors in the pitch CAS modeling so I wouldn't compare it to the F-15E right now. That said, M2000 and Harrier have gone through extensive FM tuning since their release, so we could expect the same for the Mudhen.

[Death Merchant]

14 hours ago, WizzRD said:

Add 10 kts to the published TO speed and you´ll take off by the book.

At rotation speed stick half way back and as soon the nose comes off the ground stick back to neutral. Right after hitting the gear lever start dialing down the TO trim and establish 10-12° flyout attitude. Works for me at all gross weights.

How does one find the TO speed? I haven't been able to find any info on speeds for TO, climb, cruise, etc.

Is there info on typical mission profiles for speeds and altitudes? I typically fly the F-18 via the FPAS page.

[Holbeach]

2 hours ago, Death Merchant said:

How does one find the TO speed? I haven't been able to find any info on speeds for TO, climb, cruise, etc.

Is there info on typical mission profiles for speeds and altitudes? I typically fly the F-18 via the FPAS page.

70000lb. T/O.

Set T/O trim.

Full AB. At rotation speed, 155 kts give half stick for 1 sec. for 12 deg attitude.

Nose wheel lift off at 170 kts.

Lift off at 190 kts.

Gear up, flaps up, trim fwd.

From the RL manual. Works perfectly.

 

..

 

[grant977]

Where did you get those speeds from nothing in the appendix or in normal procedures.

[Holbeach]

21 minutes ago, grant977 said:

Where did you get those speeds from nothing in the appendix or in normal procedures.

B3-10.

..

[Dentedend10]

On 6/27/2023 at 12:42 PM, Rainmaker said:

  Watch the pilots right arm during rotation and how stick pressure is released once rotation starts to catch the nose.  

This helped me quite a bit, the oscillations are 90% gone. 10% is probably PIO  Thanks!

[Thx1137]

15 hours ago, Holbeach said:

70000lb. T/O.

Set T/O trim.

Full AB. At rotation speed, 155 kts give half stick for 1 sec. for 12 deg attitude.

Nose wheel lift off at 170 kts.

Lift off at 190 kts.

Gear up, flaps up, trim fwd.

From the RL manual. Works perfectly.

 

..

 

Thanks for that. This beast is certainly different. 

I think we are mostly used to an aircrafts nose rising at rotation speed quickly followed by the mains. But in this case you need to wait a little longer and not play with the pitch to force the aircraft into the air. Then, relax the pitch and don't push it down. I find it hard to describe but being smooth is key too.