Rockets are pretty useless with the current DCS modeling; convince me otherwise.

[av8orDave]

I've been flying a bit more of the AH-64 lately. Overall a great module. 

A couple of issues that need corrected, however, lead to rockets being relatively useless, at least with the current modeling.

The issues I see:

- Rockets basically require a direct or nearly direct hit to kill anything. For example, I was firing rockets at an SA-2 site. You basically have a radar installation surrounded by a bunch of 35 ft long missiles... rockets landing anywhere in the area should cause quite an issue. But unless it is a direct hit, not a whole lot is damaged. Same thing for unarmored trucks.

- Ground AI accuracy with guns makes getting within the range of rockets highly dangerous. AAA, tanks, ground troops, APCs, all are able to snipe you out of the sky with pinpoint accuracy if you get within about 3000 meters.

These issues seem to effect the gun as well (both fragmentation damage as well as ground AI accuracy). This basically makes the DCS Apache nothing but a flying Hellfire truck.

*Note that it could be my employment of these weapons as well. I've had a bit more success by getting out of the weeds and climbing up to a few thousand feet AGL to avoid ground fire, which has helped, but is pretty impractical if there are any SAM defenses at all.

Edited August 25, 2023 by davidrbarnette

[dedlike.]

there is no reason to convince you otherwhise, going within engagementrange of the AI is just asking to die, the Apache is still one of the best helis in DCS tho for exactly this reason, unlike the Hind for example, wich IRL realy sets alot more emphathis on Rockets than missiles , the apache can just comfortably stay outside engagement range of 90% of the units and just fire off hellfires,  its just a core DCS problem, wich tbh i dont see them fix anytime soon, i realy once thought that when they made the hind the just HAD to work on the AI aswell but here we are a few years later ....

[admiki]

#twoweeks

[NeedzWD40]

I can't say they're useless, but I don't think they're as useful as they should be. Most of the time, I'm using them for indirect fires against soft targets where it's difficult to get line of sight or attack directly. The M433 fuzed rockets are the most flexible since the penetration setting is useful for attacking through vegetation, plus they have a slightly greater splash effect when utilized with the superquick setting. Otherwise, the M229 warheads offer the best bang with a slightly reduced range, though a bit more handy for indirect fires due to the greater arc. If we should ever get M255 and M261 warheads, we'll get a lot more flexibility in how we can engage targets.

However, within the typical DCS meta, their utility is limited due to the huge focus on hard kills and lack of teamwork, so even if you were to alter their performance to be more realistic, they still wouldn't be the chosen weapon against hordes of armor. Like a lot of things, it depends on the context of what you're trying to achieve for a given scenario; most of the time, that's going to mandate HELLFIRE doomsday with all the cannon ammunition and fumes in the fuel tanks.

[shagrat]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb davidrbarnette:

Ground AI accuracy with guns makes getting within the range of rockets highly dangerous. AAA, tanks, ground troops, APCs, all are able to snipe you out of the sky with pinpoint accuracy if you get within about 3000 meters

Depends highly on your tactics and mission design. Trying to hover inside the weapons envelope of armor and AAA is a bad idea ( in DCS and in real life). If you can't sneak up on the flank or rear, you need to be mobile and use evasion, preferred with your wingman knowing what he's doing and flying cover for one another.

The AI is incredibly (unrealisticly) good in calculating lead on the fly and eyeballing your flight profile, even at lowest skill setting, which is my default for ground forces for this exact reason.

But despite the overperforming AI it is still possible and a lot of fun, to use all the Apache's weapons to good effects.

Use rockets against their intended targets, only! Infantry and unarmored/very lightly armored vehicles.

Since ED fixed the "armor" of the infantry/insurgents rockets and HEDP work pretty well, against an advancing platoon of grunts or a bunch of insurgents and a volley of 4 M229 close to an unarmored truck, a technical works pretty good. Or if you manage a direct hit on a M113 or BTR-80 it will take it out or at least cause considerable damage. The performance of the rockets should be better, sure, but they are designed as an airborne artillery weapon, intended to allow for rapid, mobile fire support against advancing motorized infantry. More modern IFVs and Tanks are typical targets for Hellfires or buddy lasing for a GBU-12 from a jet or bomber. Still we definitely need adjustment to the damage dealt to unarmored vehicles like SAM radar, launchers etc. that said, the Cluster Munitions have the same problem, though ED adjusted the Mk-20, but only the Mk-20, unfortunately.

On the other hand, the US had multiple AH-64 shot down... and the enemy had small arms, the occasional DSHK, but managed to skillfully use RPG with timed detonation (airburst) to great effect.

I know from experience this works pretty well, for the DCS insurgents, as well. One RPG can ruin your day. AAA and APC machine guns is something you need to anticipate. If you can't remove those from a safe distance the Pilot needs to focus on the target area and watch for tracers. If you get shot at, evade, not an aggressive break turn, a smooth deliberate change in two dimensions (speed, vertical, horizontal) as the gunner aimed at the point you should be in the future.

If you can't get a good shot, abort and evade, coordinate with your wingman so he's in a position to fire at the enemy while you evade and reposition.

There's a reason aircraft come in flights of minimum two.

Despite the popular belief, the Apache isn't a dedicated SEAD/DEAD asset.

Edited August 25, 2023 by shagrat

[av8orDave]

57 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Depends highly on your tactics and mission design. Trying to hover inside the weapons envelope of armor and AAA is a bad idea ( in DCS and in real life). If you can't sneak up on the flank or rear, you need to be mobile and use evasion, preferred with your wingman knowing what he's doing and flying cover for one another.

The AI is incredibly (unrealisticly) good in calculating lead on the fly and eyeballing your flight profile, even at lowest skill setting, which is my default for ground forces for this exact reason.

But despite the overperforming AI it is still possible and a lot of fun, to use all the Apache's weapons to good effects.

Use rockets against their intended targets, only! Infantry and unarmored/very lightly armored vehicles.

Since ED fixed the "armor" of the infantry/insurgents rockets and HEDP work pretty well, against an advancing platoon of grunts or a bunch of insurgents and a volley of 4 M229 close to an unarmored truck, a technical works pretty good. Or if you manage a direct hit on a M113 or BTR-80 it will take it out or at least cause considerable damage. The performance of the rockets should be better, sure, but they are designed as an airborne artillery weapon, intended to allow for rapid, mobile fire support against advancing motorized infantry. More modern IFVs and Tanks are typical targets for Hellfires or buddy lasing for a GBU-12 from a jet or bomber. Still we definitely need adjustment to the damage dealt to unarmored vehicles like SAM radar, launchers etc. that said, the Cluster Munitions have the same problem, though ED adjusted the Mk-20, but only the Mk-20, unfortunately.

On the other hand, the US had multiple AH-64 shot down... and the enemy had small arms, the occasional DSHK, but managed to skillfully use RPG with timed detonation (airburst) to great effect.

I know from experience this works pretty well, for the DCS insurgents, as well. One RPG can ruin your day. AAA and APC machine guns is something you need to anticipate. If you can't remove those from a safe distance the Pilot needs to focus on the target area and watch for tracers. If you get shot at, evade, not an aggressive break turn, a smooth deliberate change in two dimensions (speed, vertical, horizontal) as the gunner aimed at the point you should be in the future.

If you can't get a good shot, abort and evade, coordinate with your wingman so he's in a position to fire at the enemy while you evade and reposition.

There's a reason aircraft come in flights of minimum two.

Despite the popular belief, the Apache isn't a dedicated SEAD/DEAD asset.

 

I agree with everything you said. Only thing I’d add is that I almost NEVER hover in the AH-64… I’m always on the move. But the nature of unguided rockets is that you really must stop maneuvering and fly in a straight path for a moment, at least long enough to get a good firing solution… which in DCS’s current state, is plenty long enough for the world-class sharpshooting AI to snipe you right out of the sky. 

I’d actually be almost ok with the rocket’s performance if they’d correct the wildly accurate AI ground fire.

[dedlike.]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb shagrat:

Depends highly on your tactics and mission design. Trying to hover inside the weapons envelope of armor and AAA is a bad idea ( in DCS and in real life). If you can't sneak up on the flank or rear, you need to be mobile and use evasion, preferred with your wingman knowing what he's doing and flying cover for one another.

The AI is incredibly (unrealisticly) good in calculating lead on the fly and eyeballing your flight profile, even at lowest skill setting, which is my default for ground forces for this exact reason.

But despite the overperforming AI it is still possible and a lot of fun, to use all the Apache's weapons to good effects.

Use rockets against their intended targets, only! Infantry and unarmored/very lightly armored vehicles.

Since ED fixed the "armor" of the infantry/insurgents rockets and HEDP work pretty well, against an advancing platoon of grunts or a bunch of insurgents and a volley of 4 M229 close to an unarmored truck, a technical works pretty good. Or if you manage a direct hit on a M113 or BTR-80 it will take it out or at least cause considerable damage. The performance of the rockets should be better, sure, but they are designed as an airborne artillery weapon, intended to allow for rapid, mobile fire support against advancing motorized infantry. More modern IFVs and Tanks are typical targets for Hellfires or buddy lasing for a GBU-12 from a jet or bomber. Still we definitely need adjustment to the damage dealt to unarmored vehicles like SAM radar, launchers etc. that said, the Cluster Munitions have the same problem, though ED adjusted the Mk-20, but only the Mk-20, unfortunately.

On the other hand, the US had multiple AH-64 shot down... and the enemy had small arms, the occasional DSHK, but managed to skillfully use RPG with timed detonation (airburst) to great effect.

I know from experience this works pretty well, for the DCS insurgents, as well. One RPG can ruin your day. AAA and APC machine guns is something you need to anticipate. If you can't remove those from a safe distance the Pilot needs to focus on the target area and watch for tracers. If you get shot at, evade, not an aggressive break turn, a smooth deliberate change in two dimensions (speed, vertical, horizontal) as the gunner aimed at the point you should be in the future.

If you can't get a good shot, abort and evade, coordinate with your wingman so he's in a position to fire at the enemy while you evade and reposition.

There's a reason aircraft come in flights of minimum two.

Despite the popular belief, the Apache isn't a dedicated SEAD/DEAD asset.

 

Dont get me wrong, i rearly get shot down, but the reason i dont get shot down is that i simply treat getting to close to the enemy as a death sentance,  its just kinda comeedic that im as afraid of a hidden btr80 as i am of a fully fledged radar-guided AAA...  my point beeing, the game is not unpöayabke, but i feel the accuracy, and ESPECALY the situational awareness of tanks and apc is just ... imersionbreaking,  if i die because i hover 3 km infront of a tank, then thats on me, if i die flying 90kn sideways to a btr80 at 4km, then it starts to get silly( and while staying further away is easy in a apache, it realy feels like it goes against the doctrine of the mi-24..)

 

 

 

 

Tldr:  it constantly feels like you have to tiptoe around the AI and its quite imersionbreaking depending on the situation

Edited August 25, 2023 by dedlike.

[Nealius]

I concur with this. I've dumped two pods worth of HE into unarmored Blitz trucks to little effect because none of the rockets scored a direct hit.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Nealius

[shagrat]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb dedlike.:

Dont get me wrong, i rearly get shot down, but the reason i dont get shot down is that i simply treat getting to close to the enemy as a death sentance,  its just kinda comeedic that im as afraid of a hidden btr80 as i am of a fully fledged radar-guided AAA...  my point beeing, the game is not unpöayabke, but i feel the accuracy, and ESPECALY the situational awareness of tanks and apc is just ... imersionbreaking,  if i die because i hover 3 km infront of a tank, then thats on me, if i die flying 90kn sideways to a btr80 at 4km, then it starts to get silly( and while staying further away is easy in a apache, it realy feels like it goes against the doctrine of the mi-24..)

 

 

 

 

Tldr:  it constantly feels like you have to tiptoe around the AI and its quite imersionbreaking depending on the situation

 

That's a long standing issue with the AI and ED seems reluctant to rework all the damage models for ground forces.

In another thread, it was brought up again and IIRC Nineline said he will press the issue.

The thing is, it seems the root cause is the AI targeting algorithm. To me it looks like they treat aircraft similar to stationary or slow moving vehicles for lead calculations.

[Rhinozherous]

Splash damage is still very underwhelming in DCS... I fear this will not be fixed anytime soon. The second problem is that there is no suppression system. A manpad standing in the middle of a rocket attack without a direct hit is 100% able to attack you while rockets exploding left and right of him. In reality this guy will lay flat on the floor crying for his mum or running for his life. But I dont think he will be able to attack anything in this moment. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Rhinozherous

[Extranajero]

2 hours ago, Rhinozherous said:

Splash damage is still very underwhelming in DCS... I fear this will not be fixed anytime soon. The second problem is that there is no suppression system. A manpad standing in the middle of a rocket attack without a direct hit is 100% able to attack you while rockets exploding left and right of him. In reality this guy will lay flat on the floor crying for his mum or running for his life. But I dont think he will be able to attack anything in this moment. 

 

Yes, but with the new multithreading I can watch my rockets not killing or suppressing enemies at 75fps instead of 65fps - I'm sure you'll agree that's a great improvement in a combat simulator.

[admiki]

3 hours ago, Rhinozherous said:

Splash damage is still very underwhelming in DCS... I fear this will not be fixed anytime soon. The second problem is that there is no suppression system. A manpad standing in the middle of a rocket attack without a direct hit is 100% able to attack you while rockets exploding left and right of him. In reality this guy will lay flat on the floor crying for his mum or running for his life. But I dont think he will be able to attack anything in this moment. 

 

I'm not sure if that is implemented or not, but I was shown how infantry would bug off if you hit close to it. Close hits would supress for about 30 seconds or so. And supression radius was tied to type of weapon used.

[dedlike.]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb admiki:

I'm not sure if that is implemented or not, but I was shown how infantry would bug off if you hit close to it. Close hits would supress for about 30 seconds or so. And supression radius was tied to type of weapon used.

i would love supression beeing implemented, nothing worse than shooing a position with rockets, APCs, and Inf compleatly engulfed in Dust and smoke, and out of this thick, dense cloud come multiple tracers, flying directly towards you

[Gunnar81]

Just my two bits here, but I'm thinking with more and more helo and Cold War modules being developed that obviously use area of effect weapons like rocket and dumb bombs ED is going to be addressing this issue sooner rather than later.

[Iron Sights]

I think the AI is in need of much more work as well as splash damage. I was flying the Hip on the practice range with ground troops as targets. I was spraying them with the mini gun pods and you would see the whole area covered by bullets, but there would be some that just remained standing. No running away or ducking, just standing and firing accurate as hell. Hopefully, one day this will get better. Maybe it’s how I set them up, maybe they need instructions on what to do next, but it would seem like they would at least run for the tree line .

[Dagobert666]

The rockets suck.

However, I tested a mission concept in Syria where a friendly position are attacked by dozens and dozens of infantrymen (in waves) and tactical jeeps.  you had to defend this position with your Apache.

A single Rocket even remotely close to a 12 man infantry group and everyone is toast, EVERYONE RIP. In this scenario, rockets are KING. But in  no other unfortunately.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Dagobert666

[shagrat]

Am 26.8.2023 um 21:37 schrieb Dagobert666:

The rockets suck.

However, I tested a mission concept in Syria where a friendly position are attacked by dozens and dozens of infantrymen (in waves) and tactical jeeps.  you had to defend this position with your Apache.

A single Rocket even remotely close to a 12 man infantry group and everyone is toast, EVERYONE RIP. In this scenario, rockets are KING. But in  no other unfortunately.

 

That's what they were designed for... A rocket is not an anti-armor weapon unless you have APKWS and those are only really effective against light armor.

Anti-Tank Helicopters use stealth, standoff weapons and short time of exposure to enemy fire to fight tank platoons.

Apaches in Afghanistan were shot down by RPG and 7.62mm ...no AAA, no MANPADS, no IFVs with 20mm autocannons.

We need to learn tactics and optimized weapons employment.

Unfortunately that still won't solve the AI shortcomings and lack of detailed damage modeling. Though, ED already started working on the AI stuff. Most prominently infantry is now no longer armored like a tank on two feet, in rank formation they actually use fire and maneuver when in contact with an enemy, Mk-20 bomblets have been fixed/enhanced... Unfortunately ONLY the Mk-20, and critical damage seems to have been at least partially implemented as I have seen mobility damage, suppression effects(?) to some vehicles at least.

Edited August 28, 2023 by shagrat
Corrected auto-correct

[Hotdognz]

This is the reason why we use a splash damage mod on our server missions, helps a lot with rocket attacker and helps against the abysmal ED ground AI which has been this way a long time.

[krazyj]

16 hours ago, Hotdognz said:

This is the reason why we use a splash damage mod on our server missions, helps a lot with rocket attacker and helps against the abysmal ED ground AI which has been this way a long time.

would you happen to have a link for that ?

[NeedzWD40]

3 hours ago, krazyj said:

would you happen to have a link for that ?

Try this one:

 

[shagrat]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb NeedzWD40:

Try this one:

 

That's actually the best workaround for now.

Grimm's fork does a good balance between enhancing the weapons effects and just adding more explosives. I tested the 2.0 version before he released it and the damage radius for the rockets is pretty much the  same, but the damage dealt is increased. So it's still close to the real thing, but counters the resilience of the DCS ground vehicles. 

Grimm did a great job there with tweaking damage, but not overpowering individual weapons.

Only drawback is, you get used to it and joining a server without or playing a campaign can put you in an "involuntary hardcore mode"...

[ebabil]

I use rockets when I want to die in the game. This applies for all helicopters. Simply I can not make kills with them.

[av8orDave]

3 hours ago, ebabil said:

I use rockets when I want to die in the game. This applies for all helicopters. Simply I can not make kills with them.

LOL, you're right; they are basically a death-sentence. Yesterday in a Liberation campaign I unloaded an entire load of rockets on basically a truck, and I think it ended up with like 35% damage, and that was right before the APC right across the road sniped me out of the sky with the perfectly placed golden BB.

[Dagobert666]

The AI's ability to snipe the player out of the sky, AIMBot-style, with incredible accuracy is part of the problem.

 

Even with manuel aimed weapons, it behaves as if it were radar assisted. Even with AKs...

 

That's a big part of the problem. i.e The AI is superhumanly precise, even at the lowest skill level.

If she fires at you, the projectile's trajectory is perfect. Only when you fly a curve or actively try to dodge, the shot misses.

I had anti-aircraft shooting in my army training. Aim with Manuel, without technical support.

From experience I say that even if the target flows straight, most shots miss. In a 0 stress situation without adrenaline and fear.

[TheGhostOfDefi]

Well i strongly agree that the current AI is not just good at sniping aircraft but fun also.

HOWEVER, i find rockets kind of effective (even though, as said here before, they tend to be kind of weak). I can put them to good use especially when clearing an area of infantry.

I can strongly suggest using 4 to 8 rockets per shot and using COOP-Mode both these things strongly boost effectiveness!

Edited August 29, 2023 by TheGhostOfDefi