waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, USA_Recon said:

Earlier today I didn’t see this, but then after watching the RB discord explode by simply having one person ask about “IP infringement” was just crazy.  No one wants to be around that level of toxicity . 

thats been Razbams whole schtick for the better part of 20 years.  why people support them other than they're working on peoples favorite aircraft? I dont know..but judging from some people posting, I now know beggers can be choosers.

[CaptJodan]

I would like to thank Nineline for the otherwise thankless job of having to moderate now two of these threads in perpetual purgatory.  While I question the wisdom of just opening a new thread to stoke the fires of this topic again, I do understand the initial reason why it exists, to hopefully provide updated information when it becomes available.  

Like so many others, I've been saddened by this series of events and, in the beginning, was hoping for a quick resolution.  Like so many others, I'm frustrated that it has dragged on.  If it wasn't for this, I feel like this year is one of DCS's best, with the release of the Phantom, Kiowa, Kola, and the upcoming Chinook and Afghanistan map.  We may still even get the Mig-29 later and a few other modules are getting closer to release as well (La-7 maybe?).  It's actually been a banger year so far.  I can't recall a time ED has released so much new content.  It makes it all the more grating to see this issue bringing down what should be a celebration of one of the best years so far.  

As I don't know all the facts (even after 100+ pages combined between the two threads), I choose to keep my hat out of the ring as much as possible, and feel best if most of us do the same if we want or hope to get things back to normal.  I have my biases based on years of being a customer of the two companies and seeing how each company handles themselves, but those biases do not aid the current situation.  Most of us, those not looking to simply watch the world burn, want F-15E development to resume and for the two companies to resolve their differences.  We can insist that they "grow up" and "just solve it", but we have been told that they are trying to do just that.  We can judge one side or another without the full picture, but that just makes getting back to normal harder.  At the end of the day, raging isn't going to resolve the issue faster.  If this destroys your faith in the game, that's fine.  Many others want to see this through.  I know I'm waiting it out.  

[Slippa]

7 hours ago, NineLine said:

I only ask that everyone have some critical thinking when they see things plastered all over. Again, unless it's an official statement you need to consider that not everyone with a colorful name knows everything. 

As well, and I dread even bringing this up, but I am just tired. Stop all the hate breeding... maybe that's too harsh of a term but the anger and angst I have seen thrown around between customers, devs, SME's etc is just horrible to me, every day I see people attacked or bullied or whatever for an opinion it seems harder and harder to see a way back to normal. If you want me to be the villain in your story fine, call me names whatever but please dial it back some on the abuse and anger towards other customers no matter what side of the fence you are on (this plea goes to ex-devs, SME's whoever) consider what kind of future we want to see. 

Bang on.

Just reading some of the bile gets me gutted too. None of it helps the situation and just stirs it up and I probably don’t have to read through a fraction of what you do either. I have to commend you on your patience. I can well imagine it wearing on ya at times, especially when it’s such a hot topic that we’re all invested in. Hope it doesn’t all linger on too long for everyones sake though it’s probably likely to.

I was just starting to get into the Eagle too after having it hangared since I bought it. I’d barely got the cold starts sorted when all this kicked off and it stopped me from carrying on much. Plenty of chopper converting I was doing too so I carried on with those but I’ve still had a fly about in the Eagle now and then. I’m in the same boat as Beirut when it comes to messing about with dates or clocks just to use it properly though.

 Maybe an out of court settlement over a few pints can sack the lawyers off and we can all sing kumbaya and go flying again. Ya just never know.

[Rainmaker]

14 minutes ago, freehand said:

Is this some sort of cryptic message ?

Not really.  If I was in Vegas I woulda laid down a $1000 that the person creating their own drama would show up here a few hours later to complain about it under an alias.  I would have won that bet.

And for the record...it wasn't referring to Hammer

 

Edited June 19, 2024 by Rainmaker

[BIGNEWY]

removed off topic

[Malakhit]

Quick question; if things do not get resolved amicably, will the refund policy shift from store credit to actual monetary refunds? The way both sides have handled this dispute has completely killed off any remaining motivation I had to keep playing DCS, and I've already uninstalled the game - therefore, store credit will be of no use to me, as I do not intend to spend further money or time on this product. Thanks in advance.

[felixx75]

7 minutes ago, Malakhit said:

Quick question; if things do not get resolved amicably, will the refund policy shift from store credit to actual monetary refunds? The way both sides have handled this dispute has completely killed off any remaining motivation I had to keep playing DCS, and I've already uninstalled the game - therefore, store credit will be of no use to me, as I do not intend to spend further money or time on this product. Thanks in advance.

You know how it is currently handled. Nobody will be able to tell you now what will happen once the dispute has been resolved, whatever the outcome.

[PhantomHans]

32 minutes ago, Malakhit said:

Quick question; if things do not get resolved amicably, will the refund policy shift from store credit to actual monetary refunds? The way both sides have handled this dispute has completely killed off any remaining motivation I had to keep playing DCS, and I've already uninstalled the game - therefore, store credit will be of no use to me, as I do not intend to spend further money or time on this product. Thanks in advance.

I'm going to have to +1 this generally.  I'm on the fence about DCS in general, however I do know that there are no interesting modules that I do not already own.  Store credit would do me no good.

 

If the Razbam situation were to be resolved I would potentially be happy to keep my Razbam modules or perhaps even to buy back the ones that interest me, but as it stands, store credit is basically offering me nothing.

[SkateZilla]

16 hours ago, Horns said:

I've seen this happen many times, especially with peripheral 'configurators'. In fairness I was a bit alarmed at the idea the first time I saw it too, but it's not something that out of the ordinary.

ED has no control over what your AV software excludes or doesn't - if software developers could do that, then everyone developing malware would simply program it to be excluded from AV checks. If you'd like a permanent fix I suggest you speak to your AV software company (Edit: I wouldn't expect them to help, other than to advise you to exclude the software if you know it's safe). If you haven't actively installed an AV and you are running Windows 10 or later, then your AV will be Windows Defender.

Edit 2: One such example 

 

 

99% of the Time, PUP (Potentially Unwanted Programs) / GameHack database is controlled by 2 things.
A. Library Signature (if it's not signed, or signature is outdated it will be flagged).
B. Publisher Reputation (if too many users report the DLL Publisher w/ "not working" reports etc etc, then the publisher will be flagged and anything with their signature will be flagged).

Another part users seem to forget, at least w MS's protection specifically,
when a program crashes A-LOT, and you have auto-send reports on, the crash report contains the file that caused the crash and the publisher.
If say the F-15E ARF.dll causes 20 crashes in a month, and your system + everyone else's system sends the same report.
The Database is updated to reflect that file as a PUP due to excessive crash reports.

As far as virus definitions, every, and I mean EVERY anti-virus company uses the same database for the virus definitions, how their software determines threats and presents options to the user is the only difference.

The issue is, any program containing common lines w/ those in the Virus database, are also flagged. 

99% of the time, DCS DLLs aren't matched to a Virus definition, but are instead matched to that Software company's PUP List, which is maintained by Publisher reputation mainly *(outside of MS Security, which uses reputation + windows crash reports).

In rare cases, DCS DLLs maybe matched to things like Wacatac which uses similar code to some of DCS's functions for get states in the physics and flight model DLLs.

Edited June 19, 2024 by SkateZilla

[BIGNEWY]

folks a reminder, keep to the rules and treat each other with respect, if you can not please do not post. We will be moderating this thread a lot more from now. 

thank you 

[draconus]

6 hours ago, RaisedByWolves said:

On the next update, will the F-15E receive any updates?

We don't know yet but it's highly unlikely. Hope they come up with some solution to the radar problem at least.

[Koziolek]

6 hours ago, spikef22 said:

Does Ron actually know what IP right Razbam is infringement of? 

He would have to be totally stupid to not know that after 10 months of not getting paid. Is he?

[Arkenuh]

Been searching around and I couldn't see an answer to this anywhere. Sorry if I missed it, and feel free to redirect me to the reply if so. If not, here I go.

How did this happen considering we were told that 3rd party agreements are required to make the game files available, after the VEAO fiasco? I'm a bit confused and I want to know where to put my money from now on. 

[BIGNEWY]

Just now, Arkenuh said:

Been searching around and I couldn't see an answer to this anywhere. Sorry if I missed it, and feel free to redirect me to the reply if so. If not, here I go.

How did this happen considering we were told that 3rd party agreements are required to make the game files available, after the VEAO fiasco? I'm a bit confused and I want to know where to put my money from now on. 

Hi, 

please understand that there are contractual conditions at play but it is not something we will discuss here. We all hope a resolution can be found and for a good out come for all. 

thank you  

[Beirut]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

We don't know yet but it's highly unlikely. Hope they come up with some solution to the radar problem at least.

 

You posted a "solution", saying we just have to change the date back and forth. And when asked if it was safe to do so, you laughed at the question and said of course it is.

 

For those of us who would like to use the F-15E radar, could you explain, please, your expertise in software and how you know that changing the date on your PC back and forth and back again will not have any negative impact or any Google services, Microsoft services, any of the twenty game services requiring accounts and connections, any of the myriad of media services like Netflix etc., Steam and all the games that have connected accounts to Steam, any of the AV programs, DCS itself, or just the basic function of the PC itself.

 

Many here have said it's not a good idea to change the date back and forth and back again. A quick Google search shows similar concerns. But as you are able to just laugh off all those concerns, could you explain it to us, please, so we can all be comfortable making the changes? Thank you. 

[draconus]

23 minutes ago, Beirut said:

You posted a "solution", saying we just have to change the date back and forth. And when asked if it was safe to do so, you laughed at the question and said of course it is.

Since you're pushing so much I never called it solution, just workaround, and just for playing time in DCS F-15E with a working radar. It's optional and it's not my intention to convice anyone to do it. Since DCS itself needs correct time and date for authentication you are forced to do it after starting it and it's best to change back just after DCS session. Only you know how precious services you are running on your PC although it's not advised to run any of such during gaming either. My IT experience shows that of all wrong date cases 99% people only realised that trying to reach https sites and getting wrong certificate warnings.

[SkateZilla]

1 hour ago, Arkenuh said:

Been searching around and I couldn't see an answer to this anywhere. Sorry if I missed it, and feel free to redirect me to the reply if so. If not, here I go.

How did this happen considering we were told that 3rd party agreements are required to make the game files available, after the VEAO fiasco? I'm a bit confused and I want to know where to put my money from now on. 

The other thing not mentioned,

This applies to 3rd parties that discontinue support due to terminating/discontinuing operations (ie Closing / Shutting Down).

This likely does not apply to companies voluntarily suspending operations due to contract dispute or similar situations.

 

[Beirut]

10 minutes ago, draconus said:

Since you're pushing so much I never called it solution, just workaround, and just for playing time in DCS F-15E with a working radar. It's optional and it's not my intention to convice anyone to do it. Since DCS itself needs correct time and date for authentication you are forced to do it after starting it and it's best to change back just after DCS session. Only you know how precious services you are running on your PC although it's not advised to run any of such during gaming either. My IT experience shows that of all wrong date cases 99% people only realised that trying to reach https sites and getting wrong certificate warnings.

 

Okay, so you were guessing.

 

Thank you for the clarification. 

[dahui]

2 hours ago, Arkenuh said:

Been searching around and I couldn't see an answer to this anywhere. Sorry if I missed it, and feel free to redirect me to the reply if so. If not, here I go.

How did this happen considering we were told that 3rd party agreements are required to make the game files available, after the VEAO fiasco? I'm a bit confused and I want to know where to put my money from now on. 

Difference is that Razbam is "not willing" to support currently. Not "not able"

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2024 by dahui
Double Quote

[tarball]

This is the reality of all 3rd Party/Platform relationships.  These modules are likely dead and I can't see placing any economic trust in this particular 3rd party again, regardless of fault.  There's a saying in Vegas that the "house always wins" and the platform holder is absolutely the house in these circumstances.

[Arkenuh]

54 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

The other thing not mentioned,

This applies to 3rd parties that discontinue support due to terminating/discontinuing operations (ie Closing / Shutting Down).

This likely does not apply to companies voluntarily suspending operations due to contract dispute or similar situations.

 

and also @dahui

I completely agree with you. However, wasn't the main issue, according to ED at least, that RAZBAM has breached contract? If that allegation is correct, that's a termination and not a voluntary suspention, no?

It's simple, really:

• Is ED right, and RAZBAM breached contract? If so, ED should get the game files (according to the 3rd party agreement) and continue support for the modules
• Is ED wrong, and RAZBAM hasn't breached contract, and haven't been paid for no apparent reason? If so, they should be paid and will continue to support the modules

In both cases, modules should still be here at the end of the fiasco. If they're not, I am inclined to believe that the whole business model and ED leadership should change, as this would clearly mean the current game payment model isn't sustainable. What's stopping another 3rd party dev from someday running into similar issues with ED, resulting in a bunch of other modules leaving our hands? It just doesn't work. 

Also, what even does "not willing" mean, @dahui? What's stopping Heatblur or Polychop to one day "not will" to provide support? What happens then, do we lose more modules? The whole business model fails if ED isn't capable of retaining the modules in cases/fiascos like these. I don't care if RAZBAM are at fault. If they are, by the contract signed, Eagle Dynamics SHOULD BE getting the game files which would mean continuation of module support. 

Any result in which all of RAZBAM's modules aren't supported going forward is a complete and utter failure from ED (sharing, or not sharing the blame with the 3rd party devs of RAZBAM).

Edited June 19, 2024 by Arkenuh

[SkateZilla]

18 minutes ago, Arkenuh said:

and also @dahui

I completely agree with you. However, wasn't the main issue, according to ED at least, that RAZBAM has breached contract? If that allegation is correct, that's a termination and not a voluntary suspention, no?

It's simple, really:

• Is ED right, and RAZBAM breached contract? If so, ED should get the game files (according to the 3rd party agreement) and continue support for the modules
• Is ED wrong, and RAZBAM hasn't breached contract, and haven't been paid for no apparent reason? If so, they should be paid and will continue to support the modules

In both cases, modules should still be here at the end of the fiasco. If they're not, I am inclined to believe that the whole business model and ED leadership should change, as this would clearly mean the current game payment model isn't sustainable. What's stopping another 3rd party dev from someday running into similar issues with ED, resulting in a bunch of other modules leaving our hands? It just doesn't work. 

Also, what even does "not willing" mean, @dahui? What's stopping Heatblur or Polychop to one day "not will" to provide support? What happens then, do we lose more modules? The whole business model fails if ED isn't capable of retaining the modules in cases/fiascos like these. I don't care if RAZBAM are at fault. If they are, by the contract signed, Eagle Dynamics SHOULD BE getting the game files which would mean continuation of module support. 

Any result in which all of RAZBAM's modules aren't supported going forward is a complete and utter failure from ED (sharing, or not sharing the blame with the 3rd party devs of RAZBAM).

 

RazBAM was not suspended from development until they announced their self imposed suspension due to not being paid, RB is still operating, just not DCS Aircraft Development, they are still developing for other sims,

We don't know which contract or which part of it was breached. Simply put, their breach may have simply prompted ED to freeze payments until resolved and not a "You made a huge mistake, license terminated, give us your source code."

The source code clause is for 3rd parties that are dissolving, their assets going to escrow, 
The source code clause isn't for 3rd party take overs.

Edited June 19, 2024 by SkateZilla

[Dav IRL]

There is so much speculation, it's like a murder mystery, calm down everyone and have a drink on me. 

[SkateZilla]

3 minutes ago, Dav IRL said:

There is so much speculation, it's like a murder mystery, calm down everyone and have a drink on me. 

[Slippa]

As a struggling alcoholic…

 

I’ll drink to that