waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Beirut said:

To any of my esteemed fellow flyers who are rendered dyspeptic when reading this thread, I have one piece of sage advice:

 

Don't read this thread. 

problem is they also can’t stand anyone else reading it  

[Gizmo03]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Beirut:

 

I'm afraid I just don't see the necessity of closing a thread because some don't enjoy it, when the fastest, simplest, most logical answer to their dilemma is to simply not participate in the thread. 

 

To any of my esteemed fellow flyers who are rendered dyspeptic when reading this thread, I have one piece of sage advice:

 

Don't read this thread. 

I said DON'T close this thread - just in case you missed that point. What i would like to have is a SEPERATE (additional) thread which is closed and where only the mods can write something as soon as there are official news. Keep this thread for the discussion but open a seperate thread for official news on the topic which is closed for every kind of discussions.
In this case everyone who doesn't want to read here but also doesn't want to miss any official news can just avoid this thread and check for any new comments in the closed one - because if there is a new post it must be official.
At the moment there is no other way as reading this thread if you want to know if there are official news on that topic.

[Smashy]

13 hours ago, wombat778 said:

We (or at least I) have no real idea what will happen with the original team.  I’m sure there are all kinds of discussions and negotiations behind the scenes that we are not privy to, so it seems premature to speculate on that. Regardless, it seems strange to blame ED for the original dev team members walking away from Razbam (if they indeed have). I’m sure ED has its hands full enough dealing with its own personnel problems without worrying about the personnel issues of a contractor 

Totally agree and that's why I'm not yet requesting a refund and just waiting to see how this plays out.  I'm not sure if you're reading what I said as assigning blame but that was never my intent.  I don't know enough about the situation to have any kind of opinion on that.

[Slippa]

Gizmo's come up with the same conclusion I had a while back about this thread.

Open a one page jobbie with any 'official' updates just for BN or NL to post in. Leave this one for all the reasons given already. If I click into here I pretty much know what to expect. Those of us that have shelled out for RBs stuff have to have somewhere to chew it over, may as well be here. 

The whole situation's been a downer from the off. The only brightener for me was the 'smuggled Budgie' that flew in . I'm still hoping somehow people (including us) could take a breather now and then and consider each other a bit more. I'd have thought the amount of time passed already would've been enough for a bit of reflection and perspective to sink in for both parties. Too often we get busy arguing with other people, build walls and get behind our positions when we should be breaking walls down and trying to get it sorted. We can all move on and start enjoying things again.

Having said that, even I get a bit cheesy with the 'all we need is love' rollout and I'm not about to get the kum bah yah guitar out just yet. We all know what it's like to get the royal hump though. A lot of things could be dealt with and gotten over if we just stood back and took a look at it for a minute.

Someone needs to stop sulking and work out a compromise. If they wanna work together again somehow they'll have to. As it is my Eagle's just dandy and so's the Harrier, I can all but smell the fumes so I'm ok. I'd still like to read this had been sorted though for everyone's sake.

Ya never know, Hammer1-1 might drop back in with the acoustic, strike a few chords and announce a new RB/ED module?

There. Fixed it.

 

[Smashy]

10 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

We are people who loves to simulate warfare, a bit of aggressiveness and conflict is to be expected.

No, we're more like grown men playing video games who act like entitled children arguing with each other on the internet.

[LorenLuke]

48 minutes ago, Smashy said:

No, we're more like grown men playing video games who act like entitled children arguing with each other on the internet.

I do wonder how much of it is 'acting', sometimes.

[Beirut]

8 hours ago, Gizmo03 said:

I said DON'T close this thread - just in case you missed that point. What i would like to have is a SEPERATE (additional) thread which is closed and where only the mods can write something as soon as there are official news. Keep this thread for the discussion but open a seperate thread for official news on the topic which is closed for every kind of discussions.
In this case everyone who doesn't want to read here but also doesn't want to miss any official news can just avoid this thread and check for any new comments in the closed one - because if there is a new post it must be official.
At the moment there is no other way as reading this thread if you want to know if there are official news on that topic.

 

I actually got your point, but my apologies if I addressed it incorrectly. 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

1 hour ago, Smashy said:

No, we're more like grown men playing video games who act like entitled children arguing with each other on the internet.

Nothing brings out the screaming manchild like video games.

[Mizzy]

2 hours ago, Smashy said:

No, we're more like grown men playing video games who act like entitled children arguing with each other on the internet.

Oh what a fantastic post, five stars. I have never played DCS for fighting purposes, that is no surprise to all than know me. That's why DCS is so special because it has so much content (and growing) to allow all sorts of game playing. One of my highlights in DCS for me is flying from place to place using navigation only in very bad weather and landing safely ! It's very challenging and why DCS is multi layered for all sorts of players to enjoy, not just one module or whatever.

Mizzy

[Hammer1-1]

11 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

problem is they also can’t stand anyone else reading it  

why would I care who reads the garbage? Again, its your brain cells; you deplete them any way you see fit and I wont judge. Arrivederci

[Beirut]

7 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

why would I care who reads the garbage? Again, its your brain cells; you deplete them any way you see fit and I wont judge. Arrivederci

 

I think you care a great deal, otherwise you wouldn't keep coming back and reading and writing in this garbage thread that depletes our brain cells. 

 

But now you're leaving again. See you soon. 

 

 

.

Edited July 25, 2024 by Beirut

[Hammer1-1]

1 minute ago, Beirut said:

 

I think you care a great deal, otherwise you wouldn't keep coming back and reading and writing in this garbage thread that depletes our brain cells. 

 

But now you're leaving again. See you soon. 

 

 

.

 

Dude, you want the last word? Its yours. Just like herpes, you can brag about having it in your own private war stories.

[Beirut]

1 minute ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Dude, you want the last word? Its yours. Just like herpes, you can brag about having it in your own private war stories.

 

I just find it interesting that you consider this thread to be garbage, a brain cell destroyer, and that it should be closed. And yet you are very possibly the biggest contributor to it.

 

But always happy to have you here. See you soon. 

[Czar66]

2 hours ago, Mizzy said:

Oh what a fantastic post, five stars. I have never played DCS for fighting purposes, that is no surprise to all than know me. That's why DCS is so special because it has so much content (and growing) to allow all sorts of game playing. One of my highlights in DCS for me is flying from place to place using navigation only in very bad weather and landing safely ! It's very challenging and why DCS is multi layered for all sorts of players to enjoy, not just one module or whatever.

Mizzy

A future C-130 module owner I presume. Interesting to know the different approaches others are having when it comes to DCS.

Happy flying.

[Slippa]

You two are cracking me up at least so cheers for that. 

I had a proper look around in the F-15 earlier, front and back seats, turned all the toys on but flew it clean. A lot of my flying doesn’t involve firing anything either. I had a good fly about in it and couldn’t help being even more impressed with the job they made of it. Get the guitars out, we need more of their modules. 

[RafaPolit]

On 7/23/2024 at 6:54 AM, wombat778 said:

But if ED are only doing what any well-advised company in their shoes would do, is it really fair to hold that against them?

I wrote a long post of what I "hold" against all involved, including us the community and Razbam.  I do have several complaints about how ED handles 3rd party development and how it is made so that they are protected, but not so much us customers and perhaps also not the 3rd party developers.

I will mention again the same thing I have said now three times: they can be well-advised legally.  Sure.  I would prefer them to hold advice from customer care, advice from those advocating healthy environment for all parties involved, even healthy financial practices to favor growth and sustainability.  I'm sure they are getting great legal advice.  I have also pointed out how that is probably only in EDs best short- term interest and not at all for the other parties involved.  Same thing as Razbam is doing.

In my eyes, there is no good-guy bad-guy story here.  It's the law of the jungle: everyone for themselves... and as Nobel price winner John Nash pointed out, that is not a solution that ends up with a favorable scenario, for anyone, in the long run.  We will all end up without "the girl" and the girls will end up without dates in the party.  But they would have won in court. Hurrah!

So I do hold that attitude against them.  It hurts our environment.  Razbam's attitude of withholding development hurts our environment, and I'm sure it's also "well-advised" that someone that is not being paid for their product stop providing such a product, I'm sure you would agree about that from a well-advised company perspective.  Our attitude of boycotting buying new modules until they fix this issue hurts our environment as it prevents cash flow into the environment, but it's also probably well-advised not to purchase more EA products should you risk never getting the final product. ED trying to sign contracts that would give them access to source code probably hurts the 3rd party developer environment albeit it is probably well-advised legally to do so to prevent ending up with dead-end modules.  ED withholding payment hurts the environment (even if legally right).  It's not a healthy environment.

And the main company behind the product is hugely responsible for the situation this environment is at.  That unhealthiness is something that could have been prevented, worked on, improved, discussed openly.  They have chose to do very little and too late of those things, transparency probably the biggest fail of all (in my opinion, I'm not the court, I'm a paying customer).

So yeah, you bet I hold all that against them and against Razbam, and against the community (including other 3rd party developers that have had also problems and have decided to deal with them privately potentially harming other developers that could have benefited from that feedback). 

Edited July 25, 2024 by RafaPolit

[Horns]

On 7/23/2024 at 7:54 PM, wombat778 said:

But if ED are only doing what any well-advised company in their shoes would do, is it really fair to hold that against them?

Opinion please: If a company in ED's shoes were to instead have continued with payments and essentially 'business as usual' while negotiating regarding the IP dispute, could that behavior have been taken as an indicator; either of (lack of) severity, or that there was an understanding that this should have an other-than-financial remedy? In other words, in your opinion, could continuing 'business as usual' conceivably have hurt ED's position?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Horns said:

Opinion please: If a company in ED's shoes were to instead have continued with payments and essentially 'business as usual' while negotiating regarding the IP dispute, could that behavior have been taken as an indicator; either of (lack of) severity, or that there was an understanding that this should have an other-than-financial remedy? In other words, in your opinion, could continuing 'business as usual' conceivably have hurt ED's position?

With the giant caveat that I don’t know anything about the facts of the ED/RB situation, yes, I can certainly imagine many situations where one party continuing “business as usual” despite knowing another party is breaching its IP rights could be construed as a waiver of those rights or otherwise used against them. 

[RafaPolit]

16 minutes ago, wombat778 said:

With the giant caveat that I don’t know anything about the facts of the ED/RB situation, yes, I can certainly imagine many situations where one party continuing “business as usual” despite knowing another party is breaching its IP rights could be construed as a waiver of those rights or otherwise used against them. 

I agree.  And also, from Razbam perspective, they could have continued to give support to the models without receiving payment but it's also probably not advisable to keep on working if you know you wont get paid for it.  So yeah, everyone did what was on their best interest.  It's us community that end up damaged by any outcome.

[JuiceIsLoose]

2 hours ago, RafaPolit said:

I agree.  And also, from Razbam perspective, they could have continued to give support to the models without receiving payment but it's also probably not advisable to keep on working if you know you wont get paid for it.  So yeah, everyone did what was on their best interest.  It's us community that end up damaged by any outcome.

They already did. For upwards of 9months they provided support with no payment. 

4 hours ago, Horns said:

Opinion please: If a company in ED's shoes were to instead have continued with payments and essentially 'business as usual' while negotiating regarding the IP dispute, could that behavior have been taken as an indicator; either of (lack of) severity, or that there was an understanding that this should have an other-than-financial remedy? In other words, in your opinion, could continuing 'business as usual' conceivably have hurt ED's position?

That’s one take on it. And I get it. BUT, ED must have known not paying and intending on not paying RB while still selling the module would have created the cluster we are in now. I cant believe they would be naive enough to think otherwise. ED COULD have payed RB what was owed while handling the other issue separately so that RB could still further and update the module (that ED is selling) and thus keep the customers first. But they decided not to. Not saying they had to do what I suggested. BUT they could have to keep customers first. 

4 hours ago, Horns said:

Opinion please: If a company in ED's shoes were to instead have continued with payments and essentially 'business as usual' while negotiating regarding the IP dispute, could that behavior have been taken as an indicator; either of (lack of) severity, or that there was an understanding that this should have an other-than-financial remedy? In other words, in your opinion, could continuing 'business as usual' conceivably have hurt ED's position?

That’s one take on it. And I get it. BUT, ED must have known not paying and intending on not paying RB while still selling the module would have created the cluster we are in now. I cant believe they would be naive enough to think otherwise. ED COULD have payed RB what was owed while handling the other issue seperately so that RB could still further and update the module (that ED is selling) and thus keep the customers first. But they decided not to. Not saying they had to do what I suggested. BUT they could have to keep customers first. 

[Smashy]

3 hours ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

They already did. For upwards of 9months they provided support with no payment. 

That’s one take on it. And I get it. BUT, ED must have known not paying and intending on not paying RB while still selling the module would have created the cluster we are in now. I cant believe they would be naive enough to think otherwise. ED COULD have payed RB what was owed while handling the other issue separately so that RB could still further and update the module (that ED is selling) and thus keep the customers first. But they decided not to. Not saying they had to do what I suggested. BUT they could have to keep customers first. 

That’s one take on it. And I get it. BUT, ED must have known not paying and intending on not paying RB while still selling the module would have created the cluster we are in now. I cant believe they would be naive enough to think otherwise. ED COULD have payed RB what was owed while handling the other issue seperately so that RB could still further and update the module (that ED is selling) and thus keep the customers first. But they decided not to. Not saying they had to do what I suggested. BUT they could have to keep customers first. 

Read this twice (it was unavoidable) and still couldn't make sense of it.

[nilpointer]

Does anyone else also jump into read these threads and just wonder how civilization hasn't collapsed already? I mean I'm guilty of the odd (private) meltdown because my favourite video game sometimes doesn't work as well as I might like all the time (which is just the nature of software development) .... but you know this really is all such low stakes, imagine for a moment all the other things you can fill your time with while you wait.

I know there are a million other things I'd rather do than pretend I can possibly understand the complexities of a situation without anything like a full picture or a specialization in contract law. Plenty of other aircraft to pass the time or just go and breathe some fresh air and stare at the sky 

[krazyj]

12 hours ago, RafaPolit said:

I agree.  And also, from Razbam perspective, they could have continued to give support to the models without receiving payment but it's also probably not advisable to keep on working if you know you wont get paid for it.  So yeah, everyone did what was on their best interest.  It's us community that end up damaged by any outcome.

so by your analogy, guy steals your car, he claims he didnt so he should just continue to drive it until it gets settled in court ? 
companies have a responsibility to reduce their liability so if there is an outstanding or a contract breach, they have various means like withholding payment ect to reduce the liability to said company. If you continue to allow the breach to happen the court could rule that by doing so, you have accepted the breach and thus cant reduce damages and/or liability 

[draconus]

1 hour ago, nilpointer said:

I mean I'm guilty of the odd (private) meltdown because my favourite video game sometimes doesn't work as well as I might like all the time (which is just the nature of software development) .... but you know this really is all such low stakes, imagine for a moment all the other things you can fill your time with while you wait.

What's funny, you don't have to wait - Razbam modules work just fine so you can still fly.

[lazduc]

There are several other flight sims that are slowly adding significant characteristic flight options.  Come a time when it may be financially viable to expand 

there existing genre to encompass combat experiences.  Already 3rd party developers here,  have coded similar offerings to other sim enterprises.

Flight sim business is expanding.  One would think,  to avoid any negative options that may degrade one's position in this market.  The list is long of successful 

companies making foolish decisions that folded quickly.