waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[SkateZilla]

10 minutes ago, ustio said:

I just hope a peaceful resolution. I'm not an expert in law, but I just don't see how realitically ED can take Razbam to court. And even if they win the court, I don't see how ED can realistically obtain the source code if RB just went nuclear. Like the Owner is in Ecuador, Radar dev is in France, with other dev around the world 

 

Nobody win if this is taken to court

 

Well, For starters,  no one said "court", they said "Legal Proceedings", which has many paths for businesses,
But,
if ED takes RB to court it would be in Switzerland, as that's where ED's office is located, and if they are the one's filing the suit, it would be held in their jurisdictional facility / system.
if RB takes ED to court, it would be in whichever jurisdiction RB's company is registered in and the court system they file claims in.

It would be RB Team / RB Legal team and ED Team / ED legal team, and 99% of these hearings are done via Video Conferencing, it's not like ED or RB have to fly out to somewhere remote and physically sit in a room with the judge.

As for "Winning", in business cases, it's not about "Winning" it's about legal declaration of whether or not the party's claims are valid, if so, the outcome would be decided by the contract terms or business laws for that jurisdiction.

Two companies with legal claims/disputes often settle out of court through legal mediation before going to legal litigation.

Regardless of the the path, Legal teams often advise their clients to not make public statements about the situation, as they can/will often be used in the meetings.

Edited June 24, 2024 by SkateZilla

[MAXsenna]

Thanks @SkateZilla, might the most sensible thing that's been written regarding this.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[AbsurdBurds]

As toxic as the Razbam community seems to be, perhaps it is not the worst idea for Eagle Dynamics to cut Razbam loose.  Razbam doesn’t seem interested in moderating some very vile posts and posters that run rampant in their community. I hope this changes for the better in the days to come.
 

While I am sure both parties would prefer a long term solution, this rift may be a blessing in disguise and create a healthier DCS for all in the long running.

Edited June 24, 2024 by AbsurdBurds

[Homelander]

Am 21.6.2024 um 23:54 schrieb spikef22:

Am 21.6.2024 um 20:31 schrieb Homelander:

Can Eagle Dynamics customize the AV-8B Harrier module to use the FUZE settings on racks with multiple bombs?

Here is the link to the bug report I've created in the forum:

Aufklappen  

In the short term you can make this work with lua editing presets, also be advised alot of the new fuze settings arent working right for mk 80 LD bombs. 

I have updated the Lua code, described the changes, and linked the new .lua file in the post below. Enjoy!

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/351882-the-fuze-option-for-multiple-bombs-per-rack-is-not-available/#comment-5463362

Maybe someone from Eagle Dynamics will take a look at it and it will be released with the next patch.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Homelander

[spikef22]

1 hour ago, Homelander said:

I have updated the Lua code, described the changes, and linked the new .lua file in the post below. Enjoy!

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/351882-the-fuze-option-for-multiple-bombs-per-rack-is-not-available/#comment-5463362

Maybe someone from Eagle Dynamics will take a look at it and it will be released with the next patch.

 

Great work!

[spikef22]

2 hours ago, AbsurdBurds said:

As toxic as the Razbam community seems to be, perhaps it is not the worst idea for Eagle Dynamics to cut Razbam loose.  Razbam doesn’t seem interested in moderating some very vile posts and posters that run rampant in their community. I hope this changes for the better in the days to come.
 

While I am sure both parties would prefer a long term solution, this rift may be a blessing in disguise and create a healthier DCS for all in the long running.

 

If you are judging a company and business based off the behavior of its fans you are not speaking in good faith. Like I maybe a bit of a spicy meatball in the razbam server but what do we the community have to do anything to do with the devs themselves? The answer is nothing.  

[NEW is my Callsign.]

On 6/24/2024 at 2:01 PM, AbsurdBurds said:

As toxic as the Razbam community seems to be, perhaps it is not the worst idea for Eagle Dynamics to cut Razbam loose.  Razbam doesn’t seem interested in moderating some very vile posts and posters that run rampant in their community. I hope this changes for the better in the days to come.
 

While I am sure both parties would prefer a long term solution, this rift may be a blessing in disguise and create a healthier DCS for all in the long running.

 

This might be the worst take I've seen in this forum, and I've seen some really bad takes

[Esac_mirmidon]

Specially beeing his first post ever.

One should said hello first, at least. XD

[spikef22]

38 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

Specially beeing his first post ever.

One should said hello first, at least. XD

Totally not suspicious at all...

[MustangSally]

2 hours ago, spikef22 said:

If you are judging a company and business based off the behavior of its fans you are not speaking in good faith. Like I maybe a bit of a spicy meatball in the razbam server but what do we the community have to do anything to do with the devs themselves? The answer is nothing.  

I agree with him. The place is an unmoderated sewer!

[AbsurdBurds]

30 minutes ago, MustangSally said:

I agree with him. The place is an unmoderated sewer!

Indeed it is! I much prefer the honest and quality moderation that I find on the Eagle Dynamics socials. They are actively moderated for the good of the community.
 

If Razbam goes away, at most you will be out of a few modules. If Eagle Dynamics goes away that outcome would be catastrophic. I, for one, would much rather lose Razbam than Eagle Dynamics! It is a privilege to play DCS. I hope to see you around the unfriendly skie!

 

[SlipHavoc]

2 hours ago, spikef22 said:

If you are judging a company and business based off the behavior of its fans you are not speaking in good faith. Like I maybe a bit of a spicy meatball in the razbam server but what do we the community have to do anything to do with the devs themselves? The answer is nothing.  

This feels like an is/ought thing.  Maybe people *shouldn't* judge a company by their fans, but I think they *do*.  And until they *don't*, which may mean never, it might be good if the fans of both companies got a lot more bland.

[spikef22]

25 minutes ago, SlipHavoc said:

This feels like an is/ought thing.  Maybe people *shouldn't* judge a company by their fans, but I think they *do*.  And until they *don't*, which may mean never, it might be good if the fans of both companies got a lot more bland.

While that might be fair, the line of logic is reductive at best and actively deceitful at worst. As some one pretty staunch on the opinion that there is foul Play involved and this needs to be resolved in Razbams favor. Dragging each other down is fruitless we need a combined front in our communities and ready flow of information. If the roles were reversed and that post was about ED it would be removed from this discussion end of story. 

[Ignition]

4 hours ago, AbsurdBurds said:

Indeed it is! I much prefer the honest and quality moderation that I find on the Eagle Dynamics socials. They are actively moderated for the good of the community.
 

If Razbam goes away, at most you will be out of a few modules. If Eagle Dynamics goes away that outcome would be catastrophic. I, for one, would much rather lose Razbam than Eagle Dynamics! It is a privilege to play DCS. I hope to see you around the unfriendly skie!

 

I would rather don't lose anyone.

[Hammer1-1]

2 hours ago, Ignition said:

I would rather don't lose anyone.

Id rather Razbam went under new management.

19 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

if ED takes RB to court it would be in Switzerland, as that's where ED's office is located, and if they are the one's filing the suit, it would be held in their jurisdictional facility / system.
if RB takes ED to court, it would be in whichever jurisdiction RB's company is registered in and the court system they file claims in.
 

Ive always known the opposite to be true; when I had to sue a landlord, I had to go to their county and file court proceedings. Not saying you're wrong, just saying it sound weird.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

3 hours ago, Ignition said:

I would rather don't lose anyone.

Yes. Losing Razbam would mean 4 modules and a map that ED now has maintain in their entirety has been added to their workload. We can't just "lose" products. Sure, the legal framework is there, but what is legal isn't always ethical. That'd be an *amazing* way to anger customers, me included. I rather enjoy the MiG-19.

RB learning and improving or coming under new management in addition to resolving the current issue is far, far, far preferable for everyone involved. There's a good reason why ED wants to go the commercial route and probably why RB does, as well.

[Avimimus]

After what happened with the Alphajet, it may be the case the ED has contractual clauses which allow them to take over a product which is no longer being supported. The tragedy, however, might be the unreleased modules - if Razbam has had their team members sign non-compete clauses and/or has the IP for existing work - then we might not see aircraft like the Mig-23 or IA-58 (even if they are relatively complete). Of course, this is very speculative.

Edited June 25, 2024 by Avimimus

[primus_TR]

1 minute ago, Avimimus said:

then we might not see aircraft like the Mig-23

With Razbam out of the picture,  the 23 now has a much higher chance of coming to DCS as a high quality module. Seeing as how subpar the 19 turned out,  I'm glad someone else will be doing the 23. 

[bfr]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

After what happened with the Alphajet, it may be the case the ED has contractual clauses which allow them to take over a product which is no longer being supported. The tragedy, however, might be the unreleased modules - if Razbam has had their team members sign non-compete clauses and/or has the IP for existing work - then we might not see aircraft like the Mig-23 or IA-58 (even if they are relatively complete). Of course, this is very speculative.

 

I doubt any non-compete clause would mean a damn thing now if RB haven't kept up their end of the contract with the devs.  In a lot of jurisdictions they're basically unenforceable for any meaningful period of time anyway.

Edited June 25, 2024 by bfr

[HWasp]

1 hour ago, primus_TR said:

With Razbam out of the picture,  the 23 now has a much higher chance of coming to DCS as a high quality module. Seeing as how subpar the 19 turned out,  I'm glad someone else will be doing the 23. 

 

The MiG-19 release was indeed horrible, BUT many things changed since then, and for the better. Until this happened recently...

RB has improved a lot, and there was a very good chance to get a really high quality MiG-23. If you followed the MiG-23 development, you'd know that things could be expected to meet F-15E standards, and that is good enough for me.

If this all happened years ago, I wouldn't care too much probably either, but you need to look at the current picture.

Edited June 25, 2024 by HWasp

[maxTRX]

14 hours ago, AbsurdBurds said:

...If Razbam goes away, at most you will be out of a few modules. If Eagle Dynamics goes away that outcome would be catastrophic...

 

Stock up on food and water!   Perhaps the judge will give them both a good kick in the butt...  actually, the best 'kick' for progress is competition, it has always been

[Notso]

On 6/24/2024 at 1:15 AM, SkateZilla said:

Not to get technical, But the actual state of the A-29 likely isn't the seed. *( 3D Model, FM, Systems etc., or even if any production work had been done at all )

If I go to another party *(Say BoBo Studios LLC [It's a rando name]) and I say I will give them DCS: F-15E Source Code for a 24 Pack of Dr. Pepper, 

Once both parties agree, then it's a breach of RB IP as I used the RB IP in exchange for something of value.

It wouldn't matter if it was Monetary, Physical Items, or Digital Items. *(I.E. Data/Manuals for Said Aircraft). Once something has been agreed on, and the deal is made, it's done.

Yeah, I get that.  And as a hypothetical - if its a matter of "RB promised something to someone but never delivered by the time they were caught", then withholding revenue for a year now seems a huge amount of overkill for what could have been a business slap on the wrist and told "Bad Boy, don't do that again!".  

But neither you or I know the real story, Skate - unless you have inside info to ED's side of the story.  Based on what I've been told directly from the RB side, I'm skeptical there was an IP breach at all.  Or at worst case there was a mutual IP breach.....

[Notso]

On 6/24/2024 at 2:15 AM, SkateZilla said:

Well, For starters,  no one said "court", they said "Legal Proceedings", which has many paths for businesses,
But,
if ED takes RB to court it would be in Switzerland, as that's where ED's office is located, and if they are the one's filing the suit, it would be held in their jurisdictional facility / system.
if RB takes ED to court, it would be in whichever jurisdiction RB's company is registered in and the court system they file claims in.

It would be RB Team / RB Legal team and ED Team / ED legal team, and 99% of these hearings are done via Video Conferencing, it's not like ED or RB have to fly out to somewhere remote and physically sit in a room with the judge.

 

This is what boggles my mind about this whole thing is that a governing jurisdiction is not spelled out in the contract.  EVERY international contract I've ever dealt with (and I've written a few) when dealing with international parties ALWAYS specified a mutually agreed upon legal venue where any court filings/proceedings, etc would take place - like New York or London, etc - to avoid exactly the scenario you describe above.  Otherwise both parties can just hide behind their respective court systems and go "nah-nah-nah" at each other.  

Also, every contract like this I've ever dealt with also contains mediation clauses that are used before it goes to court.  And no mediation clause I've ever seen says one party can just arbitrarily stop paying the other if they feel aggrieved as long as that party is still delivering their end of the contractual terms.  Stop payments are usually done AFTER mediation is unsuccessful.  

Edited June 25, 2024 by Notso

[KungFu]

3 minutes ago, Notso said:

  Stop payments are usually done AFTER mediation is unsuccessful.  

If this has been going on as long as some think, then maybe mediation was unsuccessful.

[Notso]

16 hours ago, MustangSally said:

I agree with him. The place is an unmoderated sewer!

Then don't go there.  Simple as!

And FWIW - the RB discords were fairly well moderated before this drama occurred and they typically stomped out any Anti-ED sentiment.  However, Given the CM's are no longer being paid and have zero incentive to keep the kids in check, it doesn't surprise me that things have gone "Lord of the Flies" to a small degree.  I mostly see just passionate fans of the RB module's upset that this is all happening while they see their airplanes breaking and rightly so are pissed off.