waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Oban]

Just now, afnav130 said:

If you are fully in the right, without question and nothing can change that, then silence is your worst enemy unless it's say, an actual criminal trial where you hold cards close to your chest. This isn't that and the hiding behind lawyers generally makes me suspicious. If you need a lawyer to protect you then my guess, it isn't as cut and dry as people would seem to think. Oh my god, you spoke the truth, it is unassailable, I am going to use to it against you. Thats makes absolutely no sense. 

If it is as cut and dry and you are still hiding behind the lawyers, that doesn't do anyone any favors. 

Silence 100% is NOT your enemy !! Running your mouth off and risk saying something that can, and often gets taken out of context, silence is also not an admission of guilt either.

Lawyers are smart creatures, I've never ever heard of a case where a lawyer has told his client to engage with the public, hold news conferences, hell, open the floodgates and tell them what you had for dinner !!

Lawyers are there to stop you from making matters worse, nothing suspicious about it, it's smart. Nobody is hiding behind lawyers either, there's a LOT at stake here for both parties, shooting ones mouth off in open forums is not the smartest of things to do.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

43 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

Why? We don't know anything for certain. In my opinion both sides haven't covered themselves in glory. This isn't a one party issue. 

Of course, however this isn't the first tango with RB with irresponsibility.

And @Oban is right; by letting the developers take out their frustrations publicly and the threats that were made? If they weren't in violation of contract before,they could be now.

Lawyers have you pipedown for a very good reason.

Edited June 14, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Hammer1-1]

34 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

If you are fully in the right, without question and nothing can change that, then silence is your worst enemy unless it's say, an actual criminal trial where you hold cards close to your chest. This isn't that and the hiding behind lawyers generally makes me suspicious. If you need a lawyer to protect you then my guess, it isn't as cut and dry as people would seem to think. Oh my god, you spoke the truth, it is unassailable, I am going to use to it against you. Thats makes absolutely no sense. 

If it is as cut and dry and you are still hiding behind the lawyers, that doesn't do anyone any favors. 

hiding behind lawyers always means guilty. OJ change your perspective on 5th amendment rights or something?

[SignorMagnifico]

This situation is unacceptable. Eagle Dynamics should have contingencies in place for this. Neither side should be holding us hostage. If RAZBAM is unable to update the module because they haven’t been paid, ED should be the ones updating it. The Streagle hasn’t even been out for a year, and it’s already a dead module with no radar. If this continues, we’ll lose three more.

[LorenLuke]

24 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

hiding behind lawyers always means guilty. OJ change your perspective on 5th amendment rights or something?

If using your 5th amendment right just makes you guilty, it's not much of a good right, is it?

Responding with 'This is ridiculous, I'm not going to dignify that with a response' and then the other side saying 'OOOohh! AAAAaahh! Look, they didn't deny it! They're GUILTY!!!! ' is dumb. It's choosing to devote your time to things that would actually require your attention, not just constant accusations that are being made that you have to slap down every time they're made.

 

3 minutes ago, SignorMagnifico said:

The Streagle hasn’t even been out for a year, and it’s already a dead module with no radar.

The year of the Strike Eagle!

[Mike Force Team]

As Mike Force Team read the posts and responses, I saw an opportunity in academia.  Using a real-world situation, we can see how unresolved disputes over money affect end-users, the software developer (RZ), and ED.  Using forum posts to show what led up to the dispute, how RZ and ED managed the situation during the dispute, and how customers responded to posts, we can see what does or does not happen.  While waiting for dispute resolution, some frustrated customers requested refunds on the F-15 while others took a wait-and-see approach.  RZ, one of the most popular developers, remained silent.  Theories and comments abounded in the forum posts, but RZ's silence left many with the sour taste of disappointment.  ED and RZ are highly likely to post new official comments for us to read when this dispute is over.  In the meantime, we experience delayed gratification.  

[Sr.]

Should we be asking for store credit/refund for the South Atlantic(RAZBAM) map as well?

Pretty sure that one will never be updated again.

[SignorMagnifico]

10 minutes ago, Sr. said:

Should we be asking for store credit/refund for the South Atlantic(RAZBAM) map as well?

Pretty sure that one will never be updated again.

That one is still receiving updates. Check the changelog for the last DCS World update. The team responsible for the terrain is a different unit than the aviation team.

[Horns]

11 minutes ago, Mike Force Team said:

As Mike Force Team read the posts and responses, I saw an opportunity in academia.  Using a real-world situation, we can see how unresolved disputes over money affect end-users, the software developer (RZ), and ED.  Using forum posts to show what led up to the dispute, how RZ and ED managed the situation during the dispute, and how customers responded to posts, we can see what does or does not happen.  While waiting for dispute resolution, some frustrated customers requested refunds on the F-15 while others took a wait-and-see approach.  RZ, one of the most popular developers, remained silent.  Theories and comments abounded in the forum posts, but RZ's silence left many with the sour taste of disappointment.  ED and RZ are highly likely to post new official comments for us to read when this dispute is over.  In the meantime, we experience delayed gratification.  

I assume the ‘silence’ you speak of on RZ’s part is specific to the time since the radar bug became apparent, because I believe earlier in this process he and his employees (or ex-employees) were rather vocal 

[Hammer1-1]

20 minutes ago, LorenLuke said:

If using your 5th amendment right just makes you guilty, it's not much of a good right, is it?

 

 

 

thats kind of what I was getting at. people dont hide behind lawyers, people hire lawyers to perform a task that only they can do. taking care of legal problems is what they do...some people just dont get it.

[lee1hy]

NOW officially dead?

no solution for 9 months, ??

Edited June 15, 2024 by lee1hy

[corvey]

 

 

Without that sweet radar code it is dead.  I was under the impression that ED said this wouldn't happen again after Hawk (which is on my account I can't use any more) and would require the source code from 3rd parties to prevent it from happening again.  So I am, um, confused on why this is happening again.     

 

Edited June 15, 2024 by corvey

[afnav130]

1 hour ago, Oban said:

Silence 100% is NOT your enemy !! Running your mouth off and risk saying something that can, and often gets taken out of context, silence is also not an admission of guilt either.

Lawyers are smart creatures, I've never ever heard of a case where a lawyer has told his client to engage with the public, hold news conferences, hell, open the floodgates and tell them what you had for dinner !!

Lawyers are there to stop you from making matters worse, nothing suspicious about it, it's smart. Nobody is hiding behind lawyers either, there's a LOT at stake here for both parties, shooting ones mouth off in open forums is not the smartest of things to do.

Shooting your mouth off, isn't the same as having factual evidence that cannot be refuted. If this is was cut and dry as a lot of people think it is, then this is zero issue. We aren't negotiating with North Korea about nukes or even part of a capital murder case. No, this is between two parties in the sim world. 

One factual statement about the situation put out in the public would solve a lot of the wtf questions and give people who paid hard earned money, and still do on this sim. If you cannot do that, then you must not being on completely solid ground. They won't even say if they have paid RB or not. That is a very easy yes or no, the why as I stated a few days ago doesn't need to be discussed. Thats a very, very simple question and it would invalidate all the RB has been saying. 

 

Seems pretty easy to me. 

Edited June 15, 2024 by afnav130

[Mizzy]

4 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

 

I own every dcs module, and have not requested any refund … what I would like to see is ED and RB reaching an agreement that lets the RB modules keep their support and development.
 

While I wait for this to happen, I have stopped purchasing anymore modules since March, with the notable exception of the Kola map .. but I did skip on the Chinook, Afghanistan, and the Kiowa, and intend to skip on FC2024 and any other Modules that may appear before this ED-RB dispute is solved. I will keep flying the modules that I already own, but I will do my best to avoid spending anymore money on DCS.

 

 

So you don't have the F4e? This is early access and a great edition to DCS. Why let a developer like Razbam take so much control over events when it was clearly them who created this mess by stealing IP and trying to profit from their theft? Razbam have always appeared to me as a con developer using other people to hide their incompetence. I am sure the modules will be in EDs hands when all this crap becomes transparent. Razbam went public with this for a reason and it appears their conman tactics are working !

Mizzy

1 hour ago, Oban said:

Lawyers are there to stop you from making matters worse, nothing suspicious about it, it's smart. Nobody is hiding behind lawyers either, there's a LOT at stake here for both parties, shooting ones mouth off in open forums is not the smartest of things to do.

A shame Razbam lawyers didn't tell them to keep their mouth shut !!

[Hammer1-1]

9 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

Shooting your mouth off, isn't the same as having factual evidence that cannot be refuted. If this is was cut and dry as a lot of people think it is, then this is zero issue. We aren't negotiating with North Korea about nukes or even part of a capital murder case. No, this is between two parties in the sim world. 

One factual statement about the situation put out in the public would solve a lot of the wtf questions and give people who paid hard earned money, and still do on this sim. If you cannot do that, then you must not being on completely solid ground. They won't even say if they have paid RB or not. That is a very easy yes or no, the why as I stated a few days ago doesn't need to be discussed. Thats a very, very simple question and it would invalidate all the RB has been saying. 

 

Seems pretty easy to me. 

 

didnt know anyone here was entitled to know the facts whether or not ED has paid Razbam. Has Razbam reimbursed ED for their illegal use of their IP? Has Razbam paid for breaking the contractual agreement?  Only people entitled to know are the lawyers and shareholders.

[Beirut]

12 minutes ago, corvey said:

Without that sweet radar code it is dead. 

 

I'm trying to be optimistic, but without the fancy A2G radar the F-15E has taken a serious beating. This thing is my modern F-111. I need that all weather, day or night, targeting. Not to mention we lost the terrain following I presume. That totally sucks.

[Mizzy]

1 minute ago, Beirut said:

 

I'm trying to be optimistic, but without the fancy A2G radar the F-15E has taken a serious beating. This thing is my modern F-111. I need that all weather, day or night, targeting. Not to mention we lost the terrain following I presume. That totally sucks.

Don't worry. the F4E has a great A/G radar, I have even learned to use it myself and I am not one of the brightest here

Mizzy

24 minutes ago, corvey said:

 

 

Without that sweet radar code it is dead.  I was under the impression that ED said this wouldn't happen again after Hawk (which is on my account I can't use any more) and would require the source code from 3rd parties to prevent it from happening again.  So I am, um, confused on why this is happening again.     

 

 

Patience, it's still unresolved so it's not officially 'happening again' !

[KoN]

On 6/11/2024 at 12:33 PM, Maberickxx88 said:

I know, but like everyone said, a Module can break with every update.

 

AFAIK you can only downgrade to the previous Version or so. Not much further. No possibility to go back to 2.5 for example.

Im fine with 2.9 anyway. Works like charm on a RTX 4090.

 

Works like a charm on a RTX-4090 . You said it right there , . 

I've totally stopped buying modules . The amount of time and effort that people put into just getting  good performance on this old code is crazy . People spend more time fixing than playing , works like a charm on a 4090 . Made me spill my tea . Nuts  

Edited June 15, 2024 by KoN

[Beirut]

2 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Don't worry. the F4E has a great A/G radar, I have even learned to use it myself and I am not one of the brightest here

Mizzy

 

Yeah, but the F-15E was on it's way to being my Space Shuttle of Death. Big, fat, heavy, fast, 300' off the deck, going like stink, in bad weather, with the great radar, tons of guided munitions, and fancy MFDs. That's my baby, right there. 

 

Alas, no more. 

[Nightdare]

26 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

Shooting your mouth off, isn't the same as having factual evidence that cannot be refuted. If this is was cut and dry as a lot of people think it is, then this is zero issue. We aren't negotiating with North Korea about nukes or even part of a capital murder case. No, this is between two parties in the sim world. 

One factual statement about the situation put out in the public would solve a lot of the wtf questions and give people who paid hard earned money, and still do on this sim. If you cannot do that, then you must not being on completely solid ground. They won't even say if they have paid RB or not. That is a very easy yes or no, the why as I stated a few days ago doesn't need to be discussed. Thats a very, very simple question and it would invalidate all the RB has been saying. 

 

Seems pretty easy to me. 

 

...how long does law school last?

If legalese was easy, it wouldn't take 7 years to get the required degrees

[freehand]

4 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

Yeah, but the F-15E was on it's way to being my Space Shuttle of Death. Big, fat, heavy, fast, 300' off the deck, going like stink, in bad weather, with the great radar, tons of guided munitions, and fancy MFDs. That's my baby, right there. 

 

Alas, no more. 

no more ? I  am so far behind.

 

Edited June 15, 2024 by freehand

[NineLine]

35 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

Shooting your mouth off, isn't the same as having factual evidence that cannot be refuted. If this is was cut and dry as a lot of people think it is, then this is zero issue. We aren't negotiating with North Korea about nukes or even part of a capital murder case. No, this is between two parties in the sim world. 

One factual statement about the situation put out in the public would solve a lot of the wtf questions and give people who paid hard earned money, and still do on this sim. If you cannot do that, then you must not being on completely solid ground. They won't even say if they have paid RB or not. That is a very easy yes or no, the why as I stated a few days ago doesn't need to be discussed. Thats a very, very simple question and it would invalidate all the RB has been saying. 

 

Seems pretty easy to me. 

 

Sadly this is not how the legal process works. Nothing about this can be described as easy.

[Czar66]

17 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Don't worry. the F4E has a great A/G radar, I have even learned to use it myself and I am not one of the brightest here

Mizzy

It just hits different when you can generate such images 45nm away.

[Nightdare]

14 hours ago, Blackeye said:

You were talking about protecting your IP not settling disputes

they are the same

Any dispute could make you lose your IP, it's not just about abuse of licenses, but,.. oh I don't know,... Bankruptcy? There are more threats than you realize

A company worth their salt should be vigilant and take immediate necessary steps if any misuse of their property is suspected, ED is doing so, deal with it!

 

14 hours ago, Blackeye said:

if you are at a point where you're concerned about losing your (legal) IP protection then you will want to take documented legal action - that doesn't necessarily mean court but just taking "business actions" like withholding payment alone could put you at risk.

I'm not saying that ED didn't take legal action just that the logic of "they cannot pay RB for anything because they would lose their IP" is not how this works.

 

Indeed that's not how it works, they are not paying RB, to pressure RB into doing what they say

Now why are they pressuring RB? Probably not for <profanity>s and giggles

That doesn't automatically mean ED is justified, but they are looking out for Nr. 1, just like RB, just like us

 

14 hours ago, Blackeye said:

M2000 and Harrier are not early access.

And where are you affected with these modules?

 

14 hours ago, Blackeye said:

Also we know that the modules have not been worked on for some time already and this will continue for an indefinite time - that is not part of early access.

 

"Updates seem to have stalled?

-"Yes, there is some issue with the code"

But you know this delays is because of a dispute, because someone made their professional dispute public

If they hadn't ,you'd know nothing if the dispute was resolved and only heard something when there is actually an issue with RB modules because of this

 

14 hours ago, Blackeye said:

And after months without solution to this dispute the confidence that it will be resolved soon point starts to lose the good faith perspective.

 

Fine, then stop buying modules and let ED go the way of the Dodo, I'm sure you'll be happier that way

If you can't have your F-15, it's better that no one plays DCS anymore, right? Who cares about ED or any of the other 3rd party contractors who apparently are NOT in dispute with ED

ED should just keep paying RB and lose money (or reimburse it with higher module prices) , so you get what you want

[Oban]

1 hour ago, afnav130 said:

Shooting your mouth off, isn't the same as having factual evidence that cannot be refuted. If this is was cut and dry as a lot of people think it is, then this is zero issue. We aren't negotiating with North Korea about nukes or even part of a capital murder case. No, this is between two parties in the sim world. 

One factual statement about the situation put out in the public would solve a lot of the wtf questions and give people who paid hard earned money, and still do on this sim. If you cannot do that, then you must not being on completely solid ground. They won't even say if they have paid RB or not. That is a very easy yes or no, the why as I stated a few days ago doesn't need to be discussed. Thats a very, very simple question and it would invalidate all the RB has been saying. 

 

Seems pretty easy to me. 

 

You still don't get it do you? They way you think things should be, to the way things are in the corporate world are chasms apart.