opinion I find the training missions for the F/A-18C to be very poor

[Sunbather]

The F/A-18C must be the 15th module or so I am dabbling with and the 5th I am actually trying to learn thoroughly. Learning the F-16C, the A-10CII, the M-2000C or even the very Early Access, training-wise utterly incomplete F-4E was a demanding but straight-forward task. Now, after almost 200 hours of DCS I come to the F/A-18C and the training missions are a slap in the face. Tutorial for waypoints? A 5-minute show in which you learn to push two buttons to activate a waypoint in the HSI and then you fly through hoops. That's it. Next training mission. The Cold Start Procedure? Leaves out all of Bit tests except for one and also leaves out half of the necessary procedures. There are zero training missions for the Supercarrier. There are only two, very rudimentary training missions regarding take-off from a carrier and Case 1 recovery. Again, most of the important stuff, including ATC procedures is completely left out.

Now, I am learning this module still with relative ease. I know my Youtubers by now, I know how stuff works in DCS, and by now - thanks to DCS by the way - I also have quite a understanding of fighter jet procedures. But I must wonder: the F/A-18C is your best selling - and probalby most expensive (regarding the need for the Supercarrier addon - module, and yet it has the worst tutorials of all the modules I've encountered so far. Worse than the Mig-21, worse than the F-4E in its current state. Don't you realize that if that is the first experience for most players after they've spent 70 bucks or even +100 bucks for the module plus near-mandatory additions, that the training missions should at least be on the same level as the F-16C? Or put differently: have you ever thought about how many people just quit DCS prematurely and talk <profanity> about it just because they were nudged into buying the F/A-18C as the alleged top module and then they just found it inaccesible, poorly explained and overall way too complex? (Which is funny because I find the F/A-18 the least complex module I've experienced so far.)

Inb4: And no, it doesn't matter if there are myriad of 3rd-party training sources out there or even 1st-party videos by Wags from 7 years ago. People are not out of their mind for wanting a proper in-game tutorial for their premium-priced module and even one or two voiced tutorials for its premium-priced addon that in the end of the day just adds people on a carrier...

 

I am not hating. Please consider it passionate feedback from someone who is rather perplexed by the utter lack of QoL-additions to the beginner's F/A-18C experience.

Edited Wednesday at 08:13 AM by Sunbather

[Steel Jaw]

Oh I dunno this Hornet driver did just fine with the manual and chucks guide.

[Jackjack171]

Not to put you out there but I must point out that even you, yourself admit that the F/A-18C is a bestseller! The tutorials are not that great, but the Hornet is not that difficult to learn and figure out either. I wouldn't worry about new players as ED has its fill of them. ED appears to be doing something right with the way that it has been going. IMHO, the myriads of 3rd party's keeps people engaged and employed (yes, people make money from YT) so why deprive them of that? 3rd parties make liveries, make content for learning and just straight up entertainment. It's a Hobbie for some, a form of revenue and fun for others. You can't stop anyone from throwing in the towel. Sounds like a personal problem on their part to me. Those that have the passion, drive and motivation to learn it will. Not many people will spend 70 dollars just to chuck it all away anyway. Not to mention the money spent on peripherals and such. And for those low attention span types that would throw money away...it is theirs to throw away!

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Sunbather said:

it has the worst tutorials of all the modules I've encountered so far. Worse than the Mig-21

Came here because of the click-bait title… but it’s hard to take the thread seriously, as the -21 is the one that has the dubious award for worse training missions 

Edited Wednesday at 01:01 AM by Rudel_chw

[Muchocracker]

9 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

Came here because of the click-bait title… but it’s hard to take the thread seriously, as the -21 is the one that has the dubious award for worse training missions 

complaining about BIT tests (that are nothing but eye candy) not being in the training missions. Lol 

Edited Wednesday at 01:10 AM by Muchocracker

[Czar66]

2 hours ago, Sunbather said:

have you ever thought about how many people just quit DCS prematurely and talk <profanity> about it just because they were nudged into buying the F/A-18C as the alleged top module and then they just found it inaccesible, poorly explained and overall way too complex? (Which is funny because I find the F/A-18 the least complex module I've experienced so far.)

um........ agree with you on the last part. Its weight on workload is about 1/3 of the A-10C and the DCS:A-10C was super well regarded over its whole lifespan, sooooooooo.......... how many people dislike the 18 or is just an impression?
It is popularly flown on servers. It was a breeze to learn by myself. Still sells a lot, and it has the free test period to have a go on it.

2 hours ago, Sunbather said:

Inb4: And no, it doesn't matter if there are myriad of 3rd-party training sources out there or even 1st-party videos by Wags from 7 years ago. People are not out of their mind for wanting a proper in-game tutorial for their premium-priced module and even one or two voiced tutorials for its premium-priced addon that in the end of the day just adds people on a carrier...

I am not hating. Please consider it passionate feedback from someone who is rather perplexed by the utter lack of QoL-additions to the beginner's F/A-18C experience.

Honestly, is there anything better in DCS than quiet time + DCS open + the manual(s) at hand with the new shinny module on the screen?

The first times turning on the plane by yourself on the carrier by just reading out the manual and taxing to the cat were super rewarding.

The worst learning experience I ever had was learning through the training missions on the A-10C by following the yellow indicators to turn switches on. I ended up not learning what each of them did and forgetting completely while in a different mission. What got me into it fast, was absorbing the checklist and finding the switches. Suddenly each switch started to mean something.

2 hours ago, Sunbather said:

The F/A-18C must be the 15th module or so I am dabbling with and the 5th I am actually trying to learn thoroughly. Learning the F-16C, the A-10CII, the M-2000C or even the very Early Access, training-wise utterly incomplete F-4E was a demanding but straight-forward task. Now, after almost 200 hours of DCS I come to the F/A-18C and the training missions are a slap in the face

15th??? This should be on top, but better last. Take your time. ONE module at a time and learn then thoroughly before getting the next one to learn. You're overwhelmed with too many modules and haven't properly made a decent workflow for you to learn an aircraft (applicable also on other sims btw.)

15 modules for just 200h is crazy... sorry. Just slow down.

(please don't take it as a criticism to you, I just want to help a brother to see the light )

Edited Wednesday at 01:54 AM by Czar66

[BIGNEWY]

8 hours ago, Sunbather said:

The F/A-18C must be the 15th module or so I am dabbling with and the 5th I am actually trying to learn thoroughly. Learning the F-16C, the A-10CII, the M-2000C or even the very Early Access, training-wise utterly incomplete F-4E was a demanding but straight-forward task. Now, after almost 200 hours of DCS I come to the F/A-18C and the training missions are a slap in the face. Tutorial for waypoints? A 5-minute show in which you learn to push two buttons to activate a waypoint in the HSI and then you fly through hoops. That's it. Next training mission. The Cold Start Procedure? Leaves out all of Bit tests except for one and also leaves out half of the necessary procedures. There are zero training missions for the Supercarrier. There are only two, very rudimentary training missions regarding take-off from a carrier and Case 1 recovery. Again, most of the important stuff, including ATC procedures is completely left out.

Now, I am learning this module still with relative ease. I know my Youtubers by now, I know how stuff works in DCS, and by now - thanks to DCS by the way - I also have quite a understanding of fighter jet procedures. But I must wonder: the F/A-18C is your best selling - and probalby most expensive (regarding the need for the Supercarrier addon - module, and yet it has the worst tutorials of all the modules I've encountered so far. Worse than the Mig-21, worse than the F-4E in its current state. Don't you realize that if that is the first experience for most players after they've spent 70 bucks or even +100 bucks for the module plus near-mandatory additions, that the training missions should at least be on the same level as the F-16C? Or put differently: have you ever thought about how many people just quit DCS prematurely and talk <profanity> about it just because they were nudged into buying the F/A-18C as the alleged top module and then they just found it inaccesible, poorly explained and overall way too complex? (Which is funny because I find the F/A-18 the least complex module I've experienced so far.)

Inb4: And no, it doesn't matter if there are myriad of 3rd-party training sources out there or even 1st-party videos by Wags from 7 years ago. People are not out of their mind for wanting a proper in-game tutorial for their premium-priced module and even one or two voiced tutorials for its premium-priced addon that in the end of the day just adds people on a carrier...

 

I am not hating. Please consider it passionate feedback from someone who is rather perplexed by the utter lack of QoL-additions to the beginner's F/A-18C experience.

Sorry to see you are struggling with the F/A-18C, the manual which is 424 pages and translated into many languages is usually a great resource for people to learn, it has been fundamental to thousands of people already learning the F/A-18C which is a complex aircraft to master and one of the most sold DCS modules.

But thank you for your feedback, if you have any suggestions to make it better in your opinion please let us know, we know not everyone can learn in the same way, some prefer a more visual learning experience or a more curated experience. 

best regards 

bignewy 

[Sunbather]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Rudel_chw:

Came here because of the click-bait title… but it’s hard to take the thread seriously, as the -21 is the one that has the dubious award for worse training missions 

You are right about the clickbait. I hate clickbait. But the more I thought about my learning experience with the F/A-18C, the more I got triggered (here's another buzzword for you) and I basically got pulled into a clickbait rage mood. It's all DCS' fault, you see?

Joking aside, I changed the title. For those rebelling against self-censorship, the original title was: "Learning experience of the F/A-18C is abysmal --- and it is hurting ED directly"

And to digress even further, your training missions are the only selling point for the Sinai map for me right now. As soon as I am finished learning my current modules, I will finally learn the Mig-21 with YOUR help. And I am already looking forward to it. 

 

[Hiob]

Well, I do not agree with OP that the Hornet is any harder to learn than any other Aircraft in DCS or that there is a lack of resources to do so......

However, one have to admit that generally most of the (good) resources to get into DCS come from 3rd parties, like Chuck's Guides, several Youtube Channels and individual content creators. Same goes for actual game content, like missions (sp and mp), Kneeboards, etc.

ED provides little more than the basic tools (actual modules and ME) and somewhat decent manuals (maybe a bit inconsistent  - I'll give that to OP). Fully embracing the "Sandbox"-concept.
Personally I would love to see ED step up their game a bit content-wise. But the short-coming for me is less about Aircrafts and learning about them, but the empty scenery. I would love to have some templates to fill the Maps with "Life". But that's merely a personal wishlist item.

[Sunbather]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Czar66:

15th??? This should be on top, but better last. Take your time. ONE module at a time and learn then thoroughly before getting the next one to learn. You're overwhelmed with too many modules and haven't properly made a decent workflow for you to learn an aircraft (applicable also on other sims btw.)

15 modules for just 200h is crazy... sorry. Just slow down.

(please don't take it as a criticism to you, I just want to help a brother to see the light )

Well, 15 modules I've looked into, i.e. setting up the most important controls and doing some action missions, e.g. hopping in the AH-64 learning how to start, then learning how to shoot bad guys with Hellfires and the 30mil. Not learning auto-start, not learning nav points etc.

After all, I needed to find out on which modules I wanted to spend time and money on, right?

And so in the end, I don't think it is crazy to learn like 4 or 5 modules at the same time. I quite enjoy being able to jump into whatever A/C I am in the mood for or play a Retribution campaign and be able to take on more than one roll.

But yeah, in the beginning dabbling with so many modules at the same time really did a number on my brain, hahaha.

[Rudel_chw]

4 minutes ago, Sunbather said:

… I don't think it is crazy to learn like 4 or 5 modules at the same time. I quite enjoy being able to jump into whatever A/C I am in the mood for

you must be much younger than me  as i’ve never been able to learn more than a single module at a time (except the FC aircraft), but I do try to master each Module before going into the next.

[Sunbather]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb BIGNEWY:

Sorry to see you are struggling with the F/A-18C, the manual which is 424 pages and translated into many languages is usually a great resource for people to learn, it has been fundamental to thousands of people already learning the F/A-18C which is a complex aircraft to master and one of the most sold DCS modules.

But thank you for your feedback, if you have any suggestions to make it better in your opinion please let us know, we know not everyone can learn in the same way, some prefer a more visual learning experience or a more curated experience. 

best regards 

bignewy 

First of all, thank you for having an open ear! As I said in my previous response posts, I think I failed to bring my point across.

Using Youtube videos, Chuck's Guides or the official manual is mandatory and I do it all the time, even while in-game. However, I found the training missions for the M-2000C or for the A-10CII excellent. I did the training missions, did some rough action missions with trial and error, then jumped into Baltic Dragon's Iron Flag and now I am flying and thoroughly enjyoing the Persion Freedom campaign. Overall I feel confident with the A-10CII and I haven't looked in the manual once! The F-16C on the other hand I did learn with the manual, even printed parts of it out. Was a good experience as well but still, the training missions were fundamental for that learning process, too. And I think it was one of the training missions or a normal mission with voice over for the F-4E where I finally learned how to do an IFR landing, learning to navigate via TACAN.

And then came the F/A-18C + Supercarrier. No Case 2 or 3 training missions, most of the training missions feel cut short severely (like the one about the nav points: click this and then click that and you have your flight plan, voilà training complete, now fly through the hoops). And there are also errors: e.g. during the HSI/TACAN training mission, the order of which buttons to push is mixed up. This definitvely needs (and: deserves?) improvement!

And my take in the end was: the F/A-18C might be the best selling module but how many people will just turn their back on DCS after their experience with the training missions?

 

 

vor 22 Minuten schrieb Rudel_chw:

you must be much younger than me  as i’ve never been able to learn more than a single module at a time (except the FC aircraft), but I do try to master each Module before going into the next.

I think you're just much more thorough and have much higher standards when learning a module. If you saw me landing, you would screech.

 

[Dragon1-1]

The problem with most of the Hornet's training missions can be summed in one sentence: they were made years ago. 

That means the module was incomplete, some things didn't work, some things worked differently. Waypoints, for instance. That mission could explain things like markpoints, creating a new waypoint, designating one as target... only, it was made so early that "click two buttons and fly around" was more or less all you could do. While most of the stuff works, the way it's explained is behind the times. You also can't "fast forward" the old missions.

The last few missions are a better experience, being much more recent. IMO, all missions should be remade to that standard. Some could be consolidated, too.

[Hillman]

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

But thank you for your feedback, if you have any suggestions to make it better in your opinion please let us know, we know not everyone can learn in the same way, some prefer a more visual learning experience or a more curated experience. 

best regards 

bignewy 

Something along these lines would be greate. Could ED pickup this series and finnish it?
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3342223/

(No BIT testing but on the other hand a bit of story-mode)

Edited Wednesday at 10:37 AM by Hillman

[Czar66]

6 hours ago, Sunbather said:

And so in the end, I don't think it is crazy to learn like 4 or 5 modules at the same time. I quite enjoy being able to jump into whatever A/C I am in the mood for or play a Retribution campaign and be able to take on more than one roll.

I see. I do the same with 5 to 6 modules,but as long as I already learned how to deploy them. I tend to keep only 1 at learning phase as it is faster to get the muscle memory.

[Rudel_chw]

5 hours ago, Hillman said:

Something along these lines would be greate. Could ED pickup this series and finnish it?
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3342223/

(No BIT testing but on the other hand a bit of story-mode)

thanks a lot for the link, as I wasn’t aware of this training Campaign … I’m not currently flying the Hornet but downloaded it anyway to use them ad refresher training once I get back to the Hornet. 

[NineLine]

We will do a review and see if and where they could be better, thanks for the feedback!

[Smashy]

11 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Sorry to see you are struggling with the F/A-18C, the manual which is 424 pages and translated into many languages is usually a great resource for people to learn, it has been fundamental to thousands of people already learning the F/A-18C which is a complex aircraft to master and one of the most sold DCS modules.

But thank you for your feedback, if you have any suggestions to make it better in your opinion please let us know, we know not everyone can learn in the same way, some prefer a more visual learning experience or a more curated experience. 

best regards 

bignewy 

I've read the manual cover-to-cover at least once and am constantly referring back to it to review something I've forgotten.  It does a decent job of covering the Hornet but it could use an update.  I sometimes have to look at another developer's Superbug manual when trying to figure out finer details that can't be found in the DCS manual.  ED's manual isn't bad but it does need some love.  The manual itself even admits this on p.12.  Also note that the last update was in March 2023.  Maybe manuals aren't the sexiest thing to work on and maybe many DCS players are reading-challenged as @Wags himself says in one of his Q&A vids but I really enjoy reading them while taking my time to learn these complex modules.  It's a big part of the fun for me.  Here's to hoping the efforts to update your manuals is still underway.

Edited Wednesday at 07:38 PM by Smashy

[Weasel]

I agree that the training missions are old and outdated. As already said they were made when the Hornet was not as completed as now.

However Baltic Dragon is working on a training campaign for the F/A-18C named Raven One: Combat Wingman and it will be like the one for the A-10C (Iron Flag). 

[NoJoy]

And I got to mention the strong and enthusiastic DCS community. There are tons of guides and how-to videos just a click away on yt. I never struggled to find in-depth explanation videos and tutorials around. That said - cheers and thanks to my brrrrrrt brothers & sisters.

And when the op says 200 hours... I must've 1000 or much more hours with just the Hog and still I find new procedures or knowledge here and there, you simply can't cover it all at once.
Like it was said above, things change from time to time as the systems of the aircraft does too.

If ED itself should give the tutorials and how-tos more love? Arguable from my point of view.

Just count the community as a part of them, customer or not.

[skypickle]

On 5/8/2025 at 7:22 AM, Weasel said:

I agree that the training missions are old and outdated. As already said they were made when the Hornet was not as completed as now.

However Baltic Dragon is working on a training campaign for the F/A-18C named Raven One: Combat Wingman and it will be like the one for the A-10C (Iron Flag). 

Still waiting for iron flag part 2