Normandy Map Discussion

[NineLine]

DCS: Young Tree;)

 

Would any environmental groups out there be upset if ED allowed tanks to roll over adolescent trees? :)

[cichlidfan]

The tanks should be able to knock down the trees - there is a "slight" difference between a Huey and 40 tons tank ;).

 

Yes there is, but once you start knocking those trees over, they start to pile up and get tangled together. The tank is not going to get very far before it will need to go around the barricade that it just created.

[NineLine]

Yes there is, but once you start knocking those trees over, they start to pile up and get tangled together. The tank is not going to get very far before it will need to go around the barricade that it just created.

 

I agree, although ED hinted at damage to trees eventually, I dont think a tank could plow through a forrest, not with any efficiency...

[cthulhu68]

What about the Rhino?

[cichlidfan]

What about the Rhino?

 

If you think that is a forest, you need to visit a few actual forests for comparison.

[NineLine]

Yeah, Rhino wasnt for cutting a path through a forrest, it was more for hedgerows and such.

[SkateZilla]

Would any environmental groups out there be upset if ED allowed tanks to roll over adolescent trees? :)

 

Twig Abuse

[firmek]

I think we underestimate the tanks. I'll see if I can find a video but a tank like T-34 would go through a birch forest, barns or even a brick houses. It wasn't something not normal, the tank would just rotate the turret back limiting the risk of demanding its canon. Obviously such "obstacle" would slow it down.

As for the DCS, I don't think there is any 3D game that would have a collision of everything with everything plus a destruction modeling for every single object. Such algorithms would be just to heavy plus require too much work. IMO we need to accept some simplifications, at least in the visual aspect.

[shagrat]

I agree, although ED hinted at damage to trees eventually, I dont think a tank could plow through a forrest, not with any efficiency...

I can guarantee it can't under most circumstances...

Maybe a very wide forest with no underbrush.

Despite common perception, a Tanks tracks are not built to grind through and over knocked down trees.

 

A typical situation would be a Tank hitting a small/medium tree, breaking it with the front and pushing over it.

Now the tree is still attached to the stump and flexes against the tanks belly. If the driver isn't very, very careful and keeps the tree centered it can easily interfere and damage with the suspension and tracks. Now, if you push into a thick group of small trees... bad idea! :smartass:

[Yurgon]

Which is totally bizarre. A tank should not be able to drive through a forest that a chopper can't fly through.

 

Then again, I remember many games, some of them even with partially destructible environment, where a tree stomp or even a picket fence would stop an MBT in full motion to a dead stop. Seems pretty tough to properly model the effect of 60 tons of steel and metal on a piece of wood. ;)

[cichlidfan]

Seems pretty tough to properly model the effect of 60 tons of steel and metal on a piece of wood. ;)

 

It shouldn't be, with proper research. Any decent Finite Element Modelling software should provide an answer quite easily.

[NineLine]

It would be nice to drive a tank into a building and have half of it collapse, or have damage specific to where rounds hit, but with the size of the maps and everything else going on in the sim, we have to accept some limitations on other things. We do have fences and such that get knocked down when you drive through them now, so its getting better, but we are a long way from real world interaction with every object on the map.

[shagrat]

It shouldn't be, with proper research. Any decent Finite Element Modelling software should provide an answer quite easily.

Yep, no problemo. Simply add a separate hi-end graphics board with CUDA support, and up your RAM to 64 GB or better... Should be enough on a map that size!

 

Or with the current, typical hardware we could shrink the map to Battlefield size, maybe? ;)

[NeilWillis]

Which is totally bizarre. A tank should not be able to drive through a forest that a chopper can't fly through.

 

You mean a tank, made out of up to 76 tons of steel couldn't go where a lightweight aluminium shell could go?

 

I can assure you that a tree is no obstacle to a tank where a helicopter wouldn't last a second.

 

I personally have seen a tree felled by a Chieftain tank. So why in wartime wouldn't tanks be able to clear fell an entire wood?

[Johnny Dioxin]

DCS: Honda lawnmower....

 

Otherwise known as "McLaren" :music_whistling:

[cichlidfan]

I personally have seen a tree felled by a Chieftain tank. So why in wartime wouldn't tanks be able to clear fell an entire wood?

 

Because a large group of 100 foot tall trees are not going to end up laying on the ground after they break. I have no doubt that the tank could cause the tree to fall. It is the obstacle created after the trees fall into other trees that becomes a problem.

 

You really are not thinking this through. A single tree is vastly different from a group of trees.

Edited April 7, 2017 by cichlidfan

[kontiuka]

We do have fences and such that get knocked down when you drive through them now

really? like where? wanna try it.

[cichlidfan]

Yep, no problemo. Simply add a separate hi-end graphics board with CUDA support, and up your RAM to 64 GB or better... Should be enough on a map that size!

 

Or with the current, typical hardware we could shrink the map to Battlefield size, maybe? ;)

 

The FEM software is used by the devs to answer the questions and give them the information regarding how the tank and the tree would interact.

 

Of course it isn't practical to do this in real time within a game.

[shagrat]

The FEM software is used by the devs to answer the questions and give them the information regarding how the tank and the tree would interact.

 

Of course it isn't practical to do this in real time within a game.

Yep, we definitely agree on that. Though what Sith, said.

We talk about a pre-release coming up, not a finished product. Now add the fact, that they need to balance eye-candy, the module's internal systems, weather model of the environment (flight physics), ballistics of weapons, and a bunch of AI and script stuff, making up the actual mission.

 

If you ask me, scrap detailed environment damage model and get the AI working with proper tactics, enhance damage modeling of playable objects and maybe implement a way to safe a mission state to support continuous missions... There are enough things I personally would give priority. :)

[cichlidfan]

Yep, we definitely agree on that. Though what Sith, said.

We talk about a pre-release coming up, not a finished product. Now add the fact, that they need to balance eye-candy, the module's internal systems, weather model of the environment (flight physics), ballistics of weapons, and a bunch of AI and script stuff, making up the actual mission.

 

If you ask me, scrap detailed environment damage model and get the AI working with proper tactics, enhance damage modeling of playable objects and maybe implement a way to safe a mission state to support continuous missions... There are enough things I personally would give priority. :)

 

No argument from me. :thumbup:

[Axion]

Yep, we definitely agree on that. Though what Sith, said.

We talk about a pre-release coming up, not a finished product. Now add the fact, that they need to balance eye-candy, the module's internal systems, weather model of the environment (flight physics), ballistics of weapons, and a bunch of AI and script stuff, making up the actual mission.

 

If you ask me, scrap detailed environment damage model and get the AI working with proper tactics, enhance damage modeling of playable objects and maybe implement a way to safe a mission state to support continuous missions... There are enough things I personally would give priority. :)

 

When you put it like that and they intend to process it on one CPU core, that must be one hell of a job.

[Wunderwolf]

... and maybe implement a way to safe a mission state to support continuous missions...

 

Well, that is certainly not a thing which can only be delivered by ED ... ;)

[Andy1966]

A good friend of mine was a tanker in the army, and he says no tank commander would ever try to run over a tree(s), for several reasons:

 

1: while you are stopped trying to knock down a tree, you would make a fine target.

 

2:Even if no enemy are present is not a viable tactic, due to risk of damage to equipment.

 

3:That's what axes are for.

4:uneven surfaces will roll the tracks off a tank in a heart beat. even a 70 ton tank has limitations

5: court marshall and the army's habit of making one pay for equipment damaged through flagrent disregard of SOP. :book:

 

 

while there are certain instances in history where it happens,(the Germans going through Belgum into France, comes to mind), and it succeeded because it was thought impossible, and infantry found the best lanes and cleared the way the best they could so the armor could pass, in most of the films, there is an infantryman guiding the tank driver over or around obstacles.

[shagrat]

A good friend of mine was a tanker in the army, and he says no tank commander would ever try to run over a tree(s), for several reasons:

 

1: while you are stopped trying to knock down a tree, you would make a fine target.

 

2:Even if no enemy are present is not a viable tactic, due to risk of damage to equipment.

 

3:That's what axes are for.

4:uneven surfaces will roll the tracks off a tank in a heart beat. even a 70 ton tank has limitations

5: court marshall and the army's habit of making one pay for equipment damaged through flagrent disregard of SOP. :book:

 

 

while there are certain instances in history where it happens,(the Germans going through Belgum into France, comes to mind), and it succeeded because it was thought impossible, and infantry found the best lanes and cleared the way the best they could so the armor could pass, in most of the films, there is an infantryman guiding the tank driver over or around obstacles.

^this

Just the risk to throw a track, is a pretty good incentive not(!) to try.

[John Hargreaves]

This new map seems to have noticeably improved the look of the DCS ground terrain and is looking really good from Wags' videos, so I was wondering, are we likely to see improvements in the sky/clouds/lighting in a DLC map such as this or is that a bigger feature of the overall game engine? I tried searching for 'clouds', but there doesn't seem to be that much discussion on it. Any thoughts?