DCS Newsletter discussion 9th September 2022 - A-1H Skyraider | Supercarrier progress | AI BFM

[Cathnan]

The way I've come to look at module/map announcements, is as a long term roadmap for DCS. I may get hyped if it's something I really want, but as the vast majority here I'm well passed my teenage years, and I know how to wait. So I remember it'll take years to come out, am happy to see what's to come and wait. The only thing I'd recommend, to manage expectations of newcomers would be to add a "ETA: TBD" at the end of the announcement trailer. So it's clear the release is a bit further down the line.

That said, I'm not much of a prop plane flyer, but the skyraider does seem awesome. I'll definitley keep a closer look at it, especially if it gets torpedos. Can a Nimitz or Forrestal handle it?

[Hotdognz]

I actually don't care at all for any off the new plane announcements anymore, my self i'm losing interest with the core game which is what only ED can fix, being with DCS since the days of Lockon I have seen how it all works with news from ED,  I really wish for more on what ED are doing with the core game, for example

The AI, its pretty bad on the ground using helicopters against any ground based asset, that's its actually become boring playing helicopter PVE missions and this is using all of the excellent missions I can find on user files that some great mission designers have made, the Apache and the Hind have really shown how bad the ground AI really is, we have announcements that AI animations are being updated, what about the logic.

The weather, the new clouds were great but the next update that was promised is taking a long time with no information for a long time from ED, the last I saw was a moving GIF that Nineline had somewhere.

Vulcan and multicore, as stated still in early testing, I believe we are 3 years on since that announcement with its being worked on as the std line, I get that ther is nothing to show that we can truly see but at least a report every now and then on how its going would be nice.

Combined Arms, nothing happening here at all from a game play point of view that I have heard about for a long time, it could be such an excellent module with some time spent on it.

The core game needs an overhaul, my group ran 3 servers over the last 4 year, 600 players registered on our Discord, some time sup to 40-50 a night online over all 3 servers (mission dependent mostly PVE) we are currently down to 2 severs and luckily to pull in 10-15 players on a weekend with a good Foothold mission, with a core 5-6 still playing week nights, we are about to drop to 1 server due to numbers, if our players want PVP we send them off to boost the better PVP servers numbers

I'm sure all the above is being worked on and no doubt I will be told all in good time.

[BIGNEWY]

5 minutes ago, Hotdognz said:

I actually don't care at all for any off the new plane announcements anymore, my self i'm losing interest with the core game which is what only ED can fix, being with DCS since the days of Lockon I have seen how it all works with news from ED,  I really wish for more on what ED are doing with the core game, for example

The AI, its pretty bad on the ground using helicopters against any ground based asset, that's its actually become boring playing helicopter PVE missions and this is using all of the excellent missions I can find on user files that some great mission designers have made, the Apache and the Hind have really shown how bad the ground AI really is, we have announcements that AI animations are being updated, what about the logic.

The weather, the new clouds were great but the next update that was promised is taking a long time with no information for a long time from ED, the last I saw was a moving GIF that Nineline had somewhere.

Vulcan and multicore, as stated still in early testing, I believe we are 3 years on since that announcement with its being worked on as the std line, I get that ther is nothing to show that we can truly see but at least a report every now and then on how its going would be nice.

Combined Arms, nothing happening here at all from a game play point of view that I have heard about for a long time, it could be such an excellent module with some time spent on it.

The core game needs an overhaul, my group ran 3 servers over the last 4 year, 600 players registered on our Discord, some time sup to 40-50 a night online over all 3 servers (mission dependent mostly PVE) we are currently down to 2 severs and luckily to pull in 10-15 players on a weekend with a good Foothold mission, with a core 5-6 still playing week nights, we are about to drop to 1 server due to numbers, if our players want PVP we send them off to boost the better PVP servers numbers

I'm sure all the above is being worked on and no doubt I will be told all in good time.

More than half of our team are working on the core of DCS the fact is it takes time, we will share news on our work as they are closer to completion, as we have with the AI BFM news this week and the supercarrier. Third party work has no bearing on our own work.

[Hotdognz]

Yep I know your working on and it will come in time, one day.

Just lettings you know what my team is seeing at the coal face so to speak with our servers and our players sentiment, the only module I saw them excited about was the last one mentioned this week which generated the most comms on Discord in a while.
 

[linside]

19 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

More than half of our team are working on the core of DCS the fact is it takes time, we will share news on our work as they are closer to completion, as we have with the AI BFM news this week and the supercarrier. Third party work has no bearing on our own work.

Dinamic campaign is included in DCS Core? 

[BIGNEWY]

10 minutes ago, linside said:

Dinamic campaign is included in DCS Core? 

Dynamic campaign is and work continues. 

thanks

[Gunfreak]

12 hours ago, XCNuse said:

Serious question though; don't we end up in quite literally the exact same place we basically just were?

Projects are locked up and key tossed out, and when that case is handed to a developer who gives zero news.... we end up being fed information about future releases.

This system is still just as bad as it has always been..... We need to be getting news of IMPENDING RELEASES.

Meanwhile, we're sitting here with knowledge of all of these third party developers, and what they're supposedly working on, but... they're free to do as they wish when it comes to communication.

 

My perspective: I'm a supporter of DCS because there are expectations of what is being sold. I'm familiar with those expectations, and like knowing these things.... things other flight simulators have never and likely never will do.

 

It's unfair [to me] that we're informed of products that MIGHT not even release! What's the point of sharing this information?

We've got companies like Polychop who have had the Kiowa lock and key for how many years now? And what's the progress to show?

We've got companies like Miltech/Leatherneck, who have been working on the F4U Corsair FOR FIVE YEARS!!!!!!!!!

We've got companies like Heatblur who have the A6 wrapped up somewhere under covers, that's allowed to be in trailer videos, and was announced 4 years ago.

The list can keep going because we know about 20+ ongoing projects including aircraft and scenery now....

Simultaneously, none of these companies are willing to give a status update but MAYBE once a year, if it's even on topic!

It's "fun" and "exciting" to hear about these potential products to DCS. But ED.... take a step back. Seriously.

What's the point of having the same issue you did 10 years ago, talking about all these products release, and then they never come?

You should genuinely be forcing your third parties to be giving quarterly updates (that is LEGITIMATELY not asking for much), and we should be fed that.

 

These recent newsletters are getting out of hand. Some of these are frankly being shared far too soon... Knowing full and well that these third party developers are doing this as side jobs. They cannot be trusted to release; so why should your customers be informed about them?

 

The news up eventual releases is going to give a majority of your newer and younger customerbase whiplash and walk away sooner than you think when they realize that the stuff being shown off, won't be around for years to come. It's a dangerous move when showing this younger customerbase who are generally gamers, not flight sim enthusiasts, "DLC" that may or may not release. It's still equally confusing to th ose of us who have been around for a long time, imagine how people unfamiliar will react?

 

These newsletters have turned into clickbait...

The Corsair is starting to annoy me.

No updates,  then around new years lots of great looking pics and wordings that hinted at immanent release. Then nothing.  A few drips of pics nothing solid. And still not a single video of it flying.  Making me think it's like a year away still.

[razo+r]

14 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

And still not a single video of it flying.  

 

[Beirut]

4 hours ago, draconus said:

They don't owe us anything. . . 

 

That's such an interesting comment.

 

On one hand you are completely correct. On the other hand ED goes to some lengths to get our attention and keep it, and to get us to part with our cash. They have invested time and money building a relationship with their customers. And the customers have reciprocated by showing a great deal of interest in the product and parting with a great deal of cash. And all of that is just fine. But all of that being true, do they really not owe us anything?

 

I have many customers, some call every year. I have ongoing business relationships with those customers just as ED has with us. Never ever would I say to a customer "I don't owe you anything". I'm not sure I would even think it. I just don't think that's the real life nature of even consensual business relationships.

 

 

4 hours ago, draconus said:

and there's life beside DCS, you know?

 

Yes, but sometimes it involves getting up early and going to work. Which is not always as much fun as bombing around in my Ka-50. 

[Silver_Dragon]

1 hour ago, Gunfreak said:

The Corsair is starting to annoy me.

No updates,  then around new years lots of great looking pics and wordings that hinted at immanent release. Then nothing.  A few drips of pics nothing solid. And still not a single video of it flying.  Making me think it's like a year away still.

The last M3 Leatherneck webpage update was on June 2022
https://leatherneck-sim.com/2022/06/01/2022-summer-update/

The last interviews was on July, on the Air Combat Sim and enigma channel, and your develop pics continue appears on FB, Twitter and here.

 

[MAXsenna]

5 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

The last interviews was on July, on the Air Combat Sim and enigma channel, and your develop pics continue appears on FB, Twitter and here.

Which is kind of ridiculous. News should be posted in the relevant forums here first. Period! 

[Beirut]

11 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Which is kind of ridiculous. News should be posted in the relevant forums here first. Period! 

 

I love Silver Dragon's frequent posting of news, but I agree with you here. Facebook is pure trash and I keep getting kicked off Twitter , so they are useless to me. And to many others I would imagine.

 

News should be here. 

[WinterH]

With all due respect, reactionary comments in the thread are hillarious. Sorry to put it bluntly, but all it ever boils down to is not being able to contain personal hype and manage expectations.

1 - Things take as long as they do, and not less. It is the nature of the beast, and it is good for them to take as long as they do to arrive on our virtual hangars at least mostly properly. We've seen otherwise enough times, and I'm sure great majority of us agree we'd rather stick with this approach.

2 - Not announcing a product early on makes ZERO business sense, especially when it will take years to put it out into the market. It builds interest in the potential buyers, and it also helps avoiding conflicting efforts of multiple vendors (see recent case of Magniute 3 and OctopusG both working on a Su-17/22M4, or the L-39 many years ago)

3 - I do personally LOVE knowing that an aircraft I am very interested in is in development, and love to learn of it as early as possible. Even if I know it is many years ahead of any sort of release. I can start deepening my knowledge of the type, and think of/start working on scearios and/or even lua scripts to use with it when it comes etc.

4 - It does no real harm to anybody if we have to be honest with ourselves. Yes, I know it does get annoying if you let the hype to control the ship, if you know what I mean  Hell I have been in that boat, I was screaming "GOOD FOLKS!? SEE THEE, HOW THEY MOCK US! OFF WITH THEIR HEADS! OFF WITH THEIR HEADS I SAY!!" with pitchfork in one hand, torch in the other when waiting for MiG-21 for example  and while not as sure of it, I may have done so for a few others too back in the day. But honestly... knowing something is coming WAY in advance, and learning of delays etc later on only has the side effect of disappointment on us, but it doesn't have any sort of malice or real harm behind it. If you've been in DCS for many years, but still haven't learned to adopt the rule of "take an announcement, add a year or two to the estimated release date", honestly it is on you

Now, there are outliers like Kiowa and Corsair. But again... c'est la vie... I'm sure devs would want it more than any of us to be able to have it out there and sell it already yesterday, but for one reason or other, they are taking as long as they do. Still, unlike back in 2013-14, it's not like we are lacking for alternatives to keep us entertained until they get here.

[Beirut]

23 minutes ago, WinterH said:

With all due respect, reactionary comments in the thread are hillarious. Sorry to put it bluntly, but all it ever boils down to is not being able to contain personal hype and manage expectations.

 

 

Yes and no.

 

Keep in mind: the announcements are managed. The hype is managed. The dangling of shiny objects in front of the customer's eyes is managed. The whole "Oh my god you really want to buy this!!!" salesmanship is managed. It's all part of a business plan to sell stuff. And that's just fine. But it is unreasonable to play that game with the customer - especially to play it over and over and over - and then in the next breath tell the customer to keep his pants on, show some patience, and quit asking when things will be ready. 

 

You can play that game, of course, but it comes off looking... less than great.

[XCNuse]

The issue is; we're getting announcements about things that may or may not even come to fruition; that's what I'm trying to get at.

And the announcements we are getting are supposedly locking in that content so if a new third party were to appear, and wants to work on that same thing ... can't?

 

I've said it already and I'll repeat it; the third parties we have generally aren't doing this as a full time job. That's fine! Don't get me wrong about my "negativity," I'm trying to point out cracks in the system. I love DCS and I'm here to stay; but that doesn't mean other people less familiar are; and eventually that can turn into a fresh community that resents this style and moves on.

 

"They owe us nothing", Except when they do.

Let's take Grinnelli's Sabre as an example; freshly in the newsletter being slated to come 'one day.' What if that day never comes? What was the purpose of the newsletter if something happens and Grinnelli decides to move on?

Literally nothing is binding this work to actually release.

 

Meanwhile, we've got other third parties who have excellent aircraft in [other simulators] that could be brought into DCS in a better nature than how they are represented in said other simulators.... But they can't, because said aircraft are locked in by third parties who are supposedly working on it, but can't even toss out a possible year of release? Being able to guess a year of release really shouldn't be that big of a deal.

 

Folks, it isn't about who owes what; it's about communication and the dichotomy of updates from third parties.

We know for example the MB339 is close to release; how is there nothing to talk about with it?

Yet, instead we get newsletters on things that genuinely might not release because they're too far into the future from a non-guaranteeable source (ie third party)

 

I'm just requesting a change, that's all.

I see no purpose to build hype for things that are years away, because it only grows levels of frustration across the community, silent or not.

The purpose of news is to share things happening, right now. Not things about what might happen. (If it were, and I was a journalist, you can bet it would be about Godzilla all day every day!)

[BIGNEWY]

10 minutes ago, XCNuse said:

The issue is; we're getting announcements about things that may or may not even come to fruition; that's what I'm trying to get at.

And the announcements we are getting are supposedly locking in that content so if a new third party were to appear, and wants to work on that same thing ... can't?

 

I've said it already and I'll repeat it; the third parties we have generally aren't doing this as a full time job. That's fine! Don't get me wrong about my "negativity," I'm trying to point out cracks in the system. I love DCS and I'm here to stay; but that doesn't mean other people less familiar are; and eventually that can turn into a fresh community that resents this style and moves on.

 

"They owe us nothing", Except when they do.

Let's take Grinnelli's Sabre as an example; freshly in the newsletter being slated to come 'one day.' What if that day never comes? What was the purpose of the newsletter if something happens and Grinnelli decides to move on?

Literally nothing is binding this work to actually release.

 

Meanwhile, we've got other third parties who have excellent aircraft in [other simulators] that could be brought into DCS in a better nature than how they are represented in said other simulators.... But they can't, because said aircraft are locked in by third parties who are supposedly working on it, but can't even toss out a possible year of release? Being able to guess a year of release really shouldn't be that big of a deal.

 

Folks, it isn't about who owes what; it's about communication and the dichotomy of updates from third parties.

We know for example the MB339 is close to release; how is there nothing to talk about with it?

Yet, instead we get newsletters on things that genuinely might not release because they're too far into the future from a non-guaranteeable source (ie third party)

 

I'm just requesting a change, that's all.

I see no purpose to build hype for things that are years away, because it only grows levels of frustration across the community, silent or not.

The purpose of news is to share things happening, right now. Not things about what might happen. (If it were, and I was a journalist, you can bet it would be about Godzilla all day every day!)

again you have given your feedback, we have explained why we are announcing third parties earlier, these projects take time and always will. 

That is not going to change, repeating it wont make your point happen. 

[Jester986]

I’ll take my warning or suspension for this one… Sorry bignewy

ED and DCS certainly have plenty of things worthy of criticism. I’m still upset about the Yak being abandoned. But complaining about module announcements is childish and whiny. More developers brings in more money for ED. This lets them focus more on core development. It’s a good thing. Of course you can whine as much as you want. But there’s no real justification to complain until someone takes money for something. 
 

That being said I’m excited for recent announcements. Sure they may be years away. Whatever. I think the Skyraider is awesome because it is HUGE. If you’ve never stood next to one it’s hard to understand the scale of this single engine radial. It’s good to know we’ll have some unique planes coming that I never thought we’d get, like the C-130 and F-100. It’s nice the see the move away for boring Gen4Blu4 JDAM slingers.

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Jester986

[Raptor9]

36 minutes ago, Beirut said:

Keep in mind: the announcements are managed. The hype is managed. The dangling of shiny objects in front of the customer's eyes is managed. The whole "Oh my god you really want to buy this!!!" salesmanship is managed. It's all part of a business plan to sell stuff. And that's just fine. But it is unreasonable to play that game with the customer - especially to play it over and over and over - and then in the next breath tell the customer to keep his pants on, show some patience, and quit asking when things will be ready. 

I'm not a heavy forum reader by any means, I tend to stick to the projects that I have immediate concern with regarding my work; nor am I active in the discords anymore. However, I haven't seen anything to suggest members of ED have actively discouraged people from expressing their desire for modules to come sooner rather than later. From what I've seen (again, limited in scope), where such frustration comes to head is when individuals actively trash development teams with false claims or hyperbole when they don't get what they want, or when they want it. I've seen a few occasions in some 3rd party dev discords when individuals have tried to incite flame wars or make outright false claims about the 3rd party over delays of product releases or bug fixes.

It's all about the nuance that I think is lost on some readers of the forums, discord or such. Moderators often make statements that are regarding specific behavior that is occurring in a thread by specific individuals, not general statements of how all users of the community should feel regarding unreleased products. When that excitement or innocent impatience turns to toxic hostility, businesses have the right to protect themselves (and other customers) against slander and harassment, which is why such rules on the forum and discord exist. Once a user crosses the line of respectful or innocent impatience to aggressive or disrespectful language, they are not only in violation of the forum/discord rules, they are violating the basic fundamentals of civility and public forum.

I say this in response to the quote and others that are similar to it in the thread, not to reply to you specifically or to say that you are guilty of such behavior. 

[Cathnan]

24 minutes ago, XCNuse said:

What was the purpose of the newsletter if something happens and Grinnelli decides to move on

You're aware life involves risks, aren't you? What if you order a shiny new car build after your custom order. Finally after months and months of waiting you're finally out your door on the way to the dealership to pick it up, but OH NO. A careless driver runs you over and you loose both your legs, and you shiny new car for you turns into an expensive - and very large paperweight. Why bother ordering in the first place if that can happen.

Those are plans that are made. And plans are always made with assumptions and best available knowledge. In this case the assumption is that the third party actually intends to bring this module out, and the best available knowledge is that no one else is there who intends to bring this out sooner. And who says other 3rd parties are even interested in developing for DCS? Do you want ED to start knocking on doors? Cue those complaining about ED staff knocking on doors when they should work on the core instead.

What would you say if two 3rd parties would develop the same module simultaniously because they didn't know of each other, but one of them would have been well able to develop a different module in the meantime?

There are different ways to approach all this. And ED's way is up there among the best imo.

[BIGNEWY]

8 minutes ago, Jester986 said:

I’ll take my warning or suspension for this one… Sorry bignewy

ED and DCS certainly have plenty of things worthy of criticism. I’m still upset about the Yak being abandoned. But complaining about module announcements is childish and whiny. More developers brings in more money for ED. This lets them focus more on core development. It’s a good thing. Of course you can whine as much as you want. But there’s no real justification to complain until someone takes money for something. 
 

That being said I’m excited for recent announcements. Sure they may be years away. Whatever. I think the Skyraider is awesome because it is HUGE. If you’ve never stood next to one it’s hard to understand the scale of this single engine radial. It’s good to know we’ll have some unique planes coming that I never thought we’d get, like the C-130 and F-100. It’s nice the see the move away for boring Gen4Blu4 JDAM slingers.

 

 

Stick to the rules and no need to worry about warnings. You will find plenty of negative feedback on this forum, its not what people say its how they say it. 

The Yak is not abandoned, we have bug reports in place and when the team have time they will be addressed, it is finding the time that is difficult. We are not Microsoft with limitless resources we have to work within the scope of what we have. 

But good to hear you are excited for the Skyraider, and yes some unique aircraft are coming in the future. We all need to continue to be patient for the announced projects

[MAXsenna]

57 minutes ago, XCNuse said:

Let's take Grinnelli's Sabre as an example; freshly in the newsletter being slated to come 'one day.' What if that day never comes? What was the purpose of the newsletter if something happens and Grinnelli decides to move on?

Well, he has released two free modules/mods, so I'm not especially worried.  

 

58 minutes ago, XCNuse said:

We know for example the MB339 is close to release; how is there nothing to talk about with it?

This is a strange stament. What more do you need to know? Should they or ED report on how the testing is going?

Some of us asked for the manual pre-release, and our wish was granted. Lots to talk about for those who wants! Thanks @6S.Duke!

[Beirut]

2 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

I'm not a heavy forum reader by any means, I tend to stick to the projects that I have immediate concern with regarding my work; nor am I active in the discords anymore. However, I haven't seen anything to suggest members of ED have actively discouraged people from expressing their desire for modules to come sooner rather than later. From what I've seen (again, limited in scope), where such frustration comes to head is when individuals actively trash development teams with false claims or hyperbole when they don't get what they want, or when they want it. I've seen a few occasions in some 3rd party dev discords when individuals have tried to incite flame wars or make outright false claims about the 3rd party over delays of product releases or bug fixes.

It's all about the nuance that I think is lost on some readers of the forums, discord or such. Moderators often make statements that are regarding specific behavior that is occurring in a thread by specific individuals, not general statements of how all users of the community should feel regarding unreleased products. When that excitement or innocent impatience turns to toxic hostility, businesses have the right to protect themselves (and other customers) against slander and harassment, which is why such rules on the forum and discord exist. Once a user crosses the line of respectful or innocent impatience to aggressive or disrespectful language, they are not only in violation of the forum/discord rules, they are violating the basic fundamentals of civility and public forum.

I say this in response to the quote and others that are similar to it in the thread, not to reply to you specifically or to say that you are guilty of such behavior. 

 

 

Oh, I'm sure I'm guilty of something, so don't feel bad about including me.  

 

While there is no concerted effort to stop people from asking when a module will be released, there is often a thundering silence as to information being offered in the form of a response. For example, if I ask when the Skyraider will be released, I will get either no answer at all or at best a diplomatic brush off. If I ask if the Skyraider will be released within two- years, I will get the same answer. If I ask if it will be released within four-years, I will get the same answer. And thus the issue.

 

If the shiny object is dangled in front of hungry eyes today, and we are directed to look at all the lovely angles and bodacious curves, and get all hot and sweaty about it... the inevitable question will arise; "When?" A response of "We have absolutely no idea and we wouldn't tell you if we did" does not exactly elicit a great deal of love. The responsibility for the managing of expectations in this case involves both parties.

[Gunfreak]

4 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

The last M3 Leatherneck webpage update was on June 2022
https://leatherneck-sim.com/2022/06/01/2022-summer-update/

The last interviews was on July, on the Air Combat Sim and enigma channel, and your develop pics continue appears on FB, Twitter and here.

 

Yes,which could go on for 3 more years for all we know. None of the interviews have given any hint of when it will come and since we still haven't seen a video at all of it flying.  I assume it's far away(F15 has been in vidoes for almost a year and still isn't released)

6 hours ago, razo+r said:

 

Yes and after that, they decided to redo almost everything. That video has nothing to do with the current Corsair. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Gunfreak

[Silver_Dragon]

32 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Yes,which could go on for 3 more years for all we know. None of the interviews have given any hint of when it will come and since we still haven't seen a video at all of it flying.  I assume it's far away(F15 has been in vidoes for almost a year and still isn't released)

Yes and after that, they decided to redo almost everything. That video has nothing to do with the current Corsair. 

 

There are several 3rd parties that are not active on the forums and have their own communication channels. Remember the negative comments that fell on M3 Chirsten Eagle 2, some very damaging and very rude. Other maintanin on silence, meanwhile waiting to show someone as M3, has continue working with the Corsair, the F-8J and uptade the Mig-21bis.

[SkateZilla]

Where and when a 3rd party decides to post updates is entirely up to 3rd Party, they are not required to post on ED's Forums, they are their own company.
Thou shall not criticize this, as it will only deter developers from posting updates if they feel all they will see is criticism on timing, where they post, what they post.