fixed 2.8.1 still has serious issues with terrain objects shadows

[SharpeXB]

@some1 What seems strange about your results is that you don’t see a performance difference in 2.8.1 between Object Shadows Default and Off (you even gained a minuscule 2/131 fps) despite the increase in triangles and objects. Looking at this another way means we’ve now got Default shadows with no performance cost i.e. now we get free shadows, which isn’t a problem. But I gather that most people see a benefit from turning the shadows off. I see you’re running this on the High preset. What if you set everything to the Low preset except the shadows in order to isolate them? Right now it looks like you’re being capped by some other variable. 

[some1]

Default shadows are not free, they put more load on GPU. In this particular spot and with an RTX4090, the GPU has extra power to spare, so they don't make a big dent in FPS. Doesn't mean it's always like that.

You can see this difference between various options better in the screenshots from VR that I posted on the previous page. Gpu frametimes are the worst with Default shadows, Flat shadows reduce GPU frametimes but increase CPU frametimes. Setting the shadows to OFF reduces both, but not by much. CPU Frametimes without objects shadows in 2.8 are still higher than in 2.7 with shadows on.

[SharpeXB]

45 minutes ago, some1 said:

Default shadows are not free

Sure I get that. But the test here somehow doesn’t reveal a cost for them. It shows this giant increase in triangles and objects without a corresponding drop in frame rate. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by SharpeXB

[some1]

In a situation where you are cpu limited, cranking up a gpu intensive option will not have a noticeable effect. I could increase resolution or msaa, and it also wouldn't decrease framerate, at least not in that spot.

 

Besides, it's not that Default option has no penalty on the cpu, more likely the cost of extra objects added with shadows OFF negates the gains from not displaying shadows. Maybe tomorrow I'll check how are the numbers with all shadows off, including self shadowing and cockpit. That should reduce the object count.

 

 

 

[some1]

Ok, I tested the same spot on High preset but with All shadows disabled (both terrain objects and main shadows setting to OFF), and the performance of both 2.7 and 2.8 is the same, hovering around 180 FPS. And looks like I'm still on CPU limit, so GPU is not skewing the result.

I guess that is a good news, it shows that the shadows are indeed the main culprit of increased CPU usage in 2.8. 

[speed-of-heat]

19 minutes ago, some1 said:

 

I guess that is a good news, it shows that the shadows are indeed the main culprit of increased CPU usage in 2.8. 

 

Indeed, lets hope they can go back to halving the perf hit rather than doubling it with flat shadows, and giving us some options for the new cockpit shadows... 

[ExGreyFox]

Been having an absolute blast last few months with stable build 2.7 falling in love with the WWII birds while running at 3240x1920 at stable 60 fps @ 60Hz with mostly all maxed detail settings. I was very disappointed to get updated to 2.8.1 and see a solid and almost consistent 10 fps drop from where I was with absolutely no visual improvement to account for it. Granted I don't have a super high end system, 2.7 ran great. Both 2.7 and 2.8.1 run at the same fps with all terrain shadows turned off in 2.8.1 while 2.7 was set at default. Turning on flat shadows craters my fps in 2.8.1

ED, all of my respects to you and the phenomenal work you do. But please keep unstable and unoptimized implementations in the experimental branch until they have been thoroughly tested and proved fully functional to be promoted to the stable build. These are basic product development practices. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by ExGreyFox

[twistking]

7 minutes ago, ExGreyFox said:

ED, all of my respects to you and the phenomenal work you do. But please keep unstable and unoptimized implementations in the experimental branch until they have been thoroughly tested and proved fully functional to be promoted to the stable build. These are basic product development practices. 

 

I must agree. I am extremely dissappointed by stable moving to 2.81. It feels like mockery to me. Stable version has always been a bit of a meme, but at least it avoided the biggest issues. Now with stable on 2.81 it has become a complete farce.

Edited January 1, 2023 by twistking

[ExGreyFox]

Apologies for going off topic but is there an easy  way to revert back to 2.7 without having to do a full blown uninstall/re-install?

 

2.8.1 with it's terrain shadows fps drain is currently unacceptable.

[Flappie]

13 hours ago, some1 said:

Ok, I tested the same spot on High preset but with All shadows disabled (both terrain objects and main shadows setting to OFF), and the performance of both 2.7 and 2.8 is the same, hovering around 180 FPS. And looks like I'm still on CPU limit, so GPU is not skewing the result.

I guess that is a good news, it shows that the shadows are indeed the main culprit of increased CPU usage in 2.8.

Hi @some1. I've been reading this threads with passion and I did the same  tests. I'm reacting now because I don't get the same result regarding this last test of yours: even with no shadows (no secondary shadows, no preimary shadows, no terrain shadows), I still get a 15% loss of FPS, and I don't quite understand why. Any idea?

[some1]

What's your gpu usage with all shadows off? 100% or less?

[Flappie]

GPU usage is 100%.

[some1]

In this case you're testing GPU limits, not CPU. Not a bad thing to do, just different. 

For me the GPU usage in this spot does not ever reach 100%, so my FPS measurements are limited by CPU. 

[MoleUK]

On 1/1/2023 at 8:44 AM, some1 said:

Ok, I tested the same spot on High preset but with All shadows disabled (both terrain objects and main shadows setting to OFF), and the performance of both 2.7 and 2.8 is the same, hovering around 180 FPS. And looks like I'm still on CPU limit, so GPU is not skewing the result.

I guess that is a good news, it shows that the shadows are indeed the main culprit of increased CPU usage in 2.8. 

Been doing lots of before/after comparisons lately. I would like to add that the shadows on/off performance hit has something else going on as well I think. It gets progressively worse the longer a server is running, independant of how many other players are currently connected. After the server resets, it goes back to baseline performance again.

You can bruteforce a reduction in the parseobj spikes by reducing the object draw distance in the lua settings, but this simply reduces the range that all ground forces / planes etc are drawn at, which is far from ideal. But dropping it from 80km to 50km or so can make a big difference. Some quick before/after reset comparisons, with shadows on flat and all other shadows (including terrain object) off:

 

 

I'm at the point where I just disable shadows and enjoy the frames. Having to constantly work around the progressive performance degradation with shadows on is too much of a headache, and reducing the object draw distance is harmful to spotting. But as far as I can tell, having shadows flat or above results in DCS trying to run extra calculcations on EVERY ground and plane unit in an 80km range in the direction you're looking.

Edited January 4, 2023 by MoleUK

[jurinko]

I did some tests with 5600x/3070 and there is not perceptible difference between ground shadows off and default. Flat seem to be worse than those two. 
I also tried to limit the visibility of objects by altering the graphics.lua LodMut (or whatever it is called) parameter but as I fly relatively simple missions with not many objects, there was no change. 

There seems to be some deeper problem than just shadows. Even if I set all settings to minimum, the game is far from fluid. The game WAS totally fluid above big cities with very high settings in 2.7 until I reinstalled Windows Media Reality, then it got such bad that even 2.8 update did not make any change. 

[MoleUK]

30 minutes ago, jurinko said:

I did some tests with 5600x/3070 and there is not perceptible difference between ground shadows off and default. Flat seem to be worse than those two. 
I also tried to limit the visibility of objects by altering the graphics.lua LodMut (or whatever it is called) parameter but as I fly relatively simple missions with not many objects, there was no change. 

There seems to be some deeper problem than just shadows. Even if I set all settings to minimum, the game is far from fluid. The game WAS totally fluid above big cities with very high settings in 2.7 until I reinstalled Windows Media Reality, then it got such bad that even 2.8 update did not make any change. 

The LODmult can help in other ways, if you want to reduce the draw distance for objects you have to change this line in the graphics lua. Search for "camera" line, you will see different values for all the different draw distance settings. Alter the second value of the "objects" line that you have your view distance set to.

So if you're on medium view distance, change it from 3000, 80000 to say 3000, 50000. If you're on high view distance change it from 5000, 80000 to 5000, 50000. etc etc. This is a very bruteforce method and reduces the distance all those planes/vehicles render in, so keep that in mind.

It does help reduce the parseobj spike significantly, but shadows completely off is just easier. Eliminates the problem entirely without having to reduce visibility. There might well be some other stuff going on as well in 2.8, but shadows has had by far the biggest impact for me.

Edited January 4, 2023 by MoleUK

[Convexrook]

It be a memory leak issue but I am only speculating. I find it hard to play VR with 2.8, it gives me a headache when I take my headset off after flying for 15 mins.

[SkateZilla]

out of curiosity what are everyone's SSAO Settings?

[speed-of-heat]

SSAO = Off

Edited January 9, 2023 by speed-of-heat

[Sr.]

SSAO = Off

[YoYo]

8 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

out of curiosity what are everyone's SSAO Settings?

Off like most of us. Too Big fps impact for me.

Edited January 9, 2023 by YoYo

[Gripen 4-1]

SSAO = off

[MoleUK]

12 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

out of curiosity what are everyone's SSAO Settings?

Off. Only shadows I ever turn on for testing are the main one, not secondary or terrain.

[slughead]

Off

[=37.Sqn= Mjugen]

OFF