Pre-order, 17th of February’23

[M1Combat]

5 minutes ago, Stackup said:

Yes they did, it was in the initial Q&A images posted here from the Razbam Discord.  The team member (Prowler?) said today that apparently it was never planned and has revised the Q&A post accordingly.  The Steam preorder will NOT be taking place ever, only the EA release at 20% discount.

potato potahto...  What's your point?  You're just mad because you're a steam user and you can't say "I pre-ordered" now?  Is that really what you were looking forward to???

 

If you're just clarifying (I haven't really been paying attention to this whole thing honestly...) then thanks...  but if you're feeling butthurt about something...  Who effing cares?  Nobody took anything from you.  But you're bitching about it anyway???  Whatev's breh...

4 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Well. I merely read their official statements and  releases - and the past 19 pages of comments. You don’t have have to make excuses for RB. We all know the facts, we did read their retractions. We understand. We simply aren’t happy. Let’s move forward and make the best out of this mess.

 

Again...  It's not a mess.

"Let’s move forward and make the best out of this"

Fixed it for ya...  You're welcome.  And yeah I agree.

[Stackup]

1 minute ago, M1Combat said:

If you're just clarifying (I haven't really been paying attention to this whole thing honestly...) then thanks...

This.  None of the rest of your post was necessary, just thought you would like to make accurate statements and be properly informed.  You're the one complaining about me telling you that you are wrong.  I will not be preordering the Strike Eagle and may not even buy it at all because I would rather save my money for the F-4, and anyway, what's it to you?

[Beirut]

42 minutes ago, cfrag said:

 

What is to their detriment is (IMHO) that they failed to tell us up front.

 

I think that is the alpha and omega of the issue. 

 

Part of my disappointment is that I was going to order two copies on Steam today. I told someone I would gift them one at pre-order as a show of support for their efforts in the DCS community. Now I can't and it's a bit of a bummer. Is it actually serious, no. Is it a deal breaker, no. Will I still buy two copies when available, yes.

 

But I remain disappointed in how all this was handled. As a years-long well paying customer, I thought I/we deserved a touch more clarity in the process.

 

 

.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Beirut

[M1Combat]

I wasn't.  I was walking two roads based on whether I was wrong or not.  I don't mind being wrong about one point out of my entire point one little bit.  As I said...  thanks for the clarification. 

 

The whole point is that Razbam hasn't taken anything from anyone...  yet people are still butthurt over a tiny company that's trying to do their part to move our favorite hobby forwards and people are actually bitching about not being able to spend their money "today" or having to spend a few extra dollars...

It's ridiculous.

 

I've seen this too many times.  It's like a shark feeding frenzy of entitled CoD players.  It doesn't look good.

 

People should just chill the eff out, realize that eventually the aircraft will be released, pay their saved little duckets and fly their little freaking planes.  All the rest is from 8 year old land friend...

 

But again...  thank you for the clarification :)...  For sure.  I do actually appreciate it :).

[JumpinK]

Imaginary i clicked this button already 10 years ago...
...purchased.

[Beirut]

12 minutes ago, M1Combat said:

The whole point is that Razbam hasn't taken anything from anyone...  yet people are still butthurt over a tiny company that's trying to do their part to move our favorite hobby forwards and people are actually bitching about not being able to spend their money "today" or having to spend a few extra dollars...

It's ridiculous.

 

 

I don't agree.

 

RazBam obviously takes this whole thing seriously enough to promote their product and build hype. Fine, I'm all for it. But if they are going to do that, and there is a reasonable expectation that customers will buy into the hype and want the product and talk about the product and get into the zone to the point where they will eagerly pre-order the product, all of these things being Razbam's goals, then it's not unreasonable for a portion of the customer base to express frustration when they are left out of part of the plan and only informed of it at the last minute.

 

I would would not have minded at all if the pre-order was on Steam today with a smaller discount or if we had been informed prior to the fact, simply as a courtesy.

[elewarr]

13 minutes ago, M1Combat said:

What's your point?  You're just mad because you're a steam user and you can't say "I pre-ordered" now?  Is that really what you were looking forward to???

You're constantly missing the point, not sure if on purpose but let me explain last one time.

I was given the ability to invest in DCS on this specific platform (i.e. Steam) - I didn't enforce this option on anyone. Since it's not one time buy, it's a continuous process and it requires a lot of commitment on my side (incl. financial) I'm treating the whole thing as a kind of contract - I was aware of Valve's cut and to support ED and vendors I decided I'll be buying every possible aircraft, terrain and campaign (I'm missing some campaigns that seemed tad old), including everything RB's released as a sign of my commitment, support and respect, and I did.

And today this contract was broken, I'm not treated the same way as other players. I didn't set price limit for F-15 module on Steam, I didn't tell RB how much their module should be priced on Steam (it wouldn't be the first time when prices differ a bit), I just impatiently refreshed Steam client on 15th and 17th. And they just ignored the whole platform... and the reason is - money... even though I don't care (too much, It would just be a little bit more explaining to do to my wife) about what value it would be 30% of off.

And I'm reading in this topic that I should switch to standalone version to support ED and vendors more - because apparently - as "this specific platform" user, I don't support them enough, and then I'm reminding myself there's just nothing more I can do to support them (incl. RAZBAM) because I already did everything I can on "this specific platform", because I wanted to prove my support and commitment... I feel like someone is slapping my face.

Sure, maybe I was wrong, maybe I'm naive, maybe I'm dramatic (but I didn't start the whole "support them more" thing) for sure I'm disappointed - I realised the commitment and respect of the effort was only on my side.

 

1 hour ago, M1Combat said:

Pfft...

The combat flight sim industry (currently AKA "Eagle Dynamics and their partners") needs the money.  You don't understand the assignment.

You are correct, I didn't - I was thinking whatever I was thinking while it's just "give us money and shut up".

[M1Combat]

@elewarr

Look I and everyone involved appreciate your support...  but thanks for taking my words and twisting them so it sounds like I've also taken something from you.  Even by replying to a comment I made to someone ELSE as if I had made it to you.

Oh and for making my point while you're at it.  I do appreciate that for sure.

 

And...  I'll stand by my statement 1000%.  Potato, Potahto sir.  You can't "pre-order" for a % discount, but you will be able to purchase at pre-release (when everyone else gets it presumably...) for similar or same % discount?  Uhm...  Where EXACTLY is something to bitch about there?

 

I haven't taken anything from you.  Neither has RazBam.  I'd bet dimes to dollars that they'll pop in here at some point and let you all know they're sorry for the mixup and all that.  Haven't they already said they will have a 20% discount (same as the pre-order???) when they do the Steam release/pre-release/pre-order/let you buy it right about the same time it's released for everyone else thing???

 

So...  What ARE people ACTUALLY bitching about?  Just that the Steam users have to wait a while before they can get the same deal as the rest of us and get the aircraft at the same time too most likely???  WUT?

 

Wait WUT??

 

Yup.  Ridiculous.

 

Completely.

@razbam or @NineLine or @whoever...  Feel free to delete my posts if you like (not that you need my approval :)) but HOLY cow...

 

Kids these days :).  I get it...  "people react to these things in their own way" and all that but I get sick and tired of all the ME ME ME in the world these days.

 

Calm the eff down you little...

OK I'm done

[Pvt Hudson]

3 hours ago, VpR81 said:

It´s not like they are producing cars where each unit has its own production costs that have to be considered. They are only selling a copy of their product, so how can they make a loss with that? In theory, they could sell each copy for 1$, as long as they sell enough of them they will earn money. Plain and simple with software.

 

What car is being sold for $1 ? Hint for when you join the real world: none. Cars cost many 1000s to the consumer and they'll likely sell far more per copy than a DCS module.

 

These guys and gals will be using hardware used to scan textures, record sounds, write code, create 3d models etc, need licences for the software they use, pay rent and other bills if they have physical presence.

How rude of the developers, managers, testers, artists wanting to get paid.

Never mind some profit for the company to conduct future R&D, expand, pay employees for products in early development. 

 

This attitude that all software must be free or $1 is offensive, plain and simple

 

 

[elewarr]

31 minutes ago, M1Combat said:

Kids these days :).

 

32 minutes ago, M1Combat said:

Calm the eff down you little...

I don't think I'm matching the imaginary interlocutor you are responding to, I also don't think name calling is a well known attribute of maturity.

[Dannyvandelft]

Greed before (Steam) customer satisfaction.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[RaisedByWolves]

The internet is serious business. Would hate to see many in this thread have to confront a real life problem. Go suck on your mothers tit.

[Dannyvandelft]

@elewarr
Look I and everyone involved appreciate your support...  but thanks for taking my words and twisting them so it sounds like I've also taken something from you.  Even by replying to a comment I made to someone ELSE as if I had made it to you.
Oh and for making my point while you're at it.  I do appreciate that for sure.
 
And...  I'll stand by my statement 1000%.  Potato, Potahto sir.  You can't "pre-order" for a % discount, but you will be able to purchase at pre-release (when everyone else gets it presumably...) for similar or same % discount?  Uhm...  Where EXACTLY is something to bitch about there?
 
I haven't taken anything from you.  Neither has RazBam.  I'd bet dimes to dollars that they'll pop in here at some point and let you all know they're sorry for the mixup and all that.  Haven't they already said they will have a 20% discount (same as the pre-order???) when they do the Steam release/pre-release/pre-order/let you buy it right about the same time it's released for everyone else thing???
 
So...  What ARE people ACTUALLY bitching about?  Just that the Steam users have to wait a while before they can get the same deal as the rest of us and get the aircraft at the same time too most likely???  WUT?
 
Wait WUT??
 
Yup.  Ridiculous.
 
Completely.
@razbam or @NineLine or @whoever...  Feel free to delete my posts if you like (not that you need my approval :)) but HOLY cow...
 
Kids these days :).  I get it...  "people react to these things in their own way" and all that but I get sick and tired of all the ME ME ME in the world these days.
 
Calm the eff down you little...
OK I'm done

I guess you can't tell the difference between 20% and 30%. It's not even about that, for me. It's principle. AFAIK every other module has always been able to be pre-ordered on Steam and Stand-alone. And the ONLY reason this one isn't, is greed. I don't even use Steam. But I'm skipping this module on principle now.

2023, the year of the Phantom.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[durka-durka]

30 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

Greed before (Steam) customer satisfaction.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

Thanks for the heads up.  I'll be holding my purchase until Razbam at least allows ED Miles to accrue.

It's hard to understand in the first place because it seemingly doesn't affect them in the least, and the Miles Program is ED's business.  I must be missing something.

[Kiwi_Viper]

plus ya cant even use the miles you have? wtf they can keep there piece of junk

[Rudel_chw]

4 minutes ago, Kiwi_Viper said:

plus ya cant even use the miles you have?

did you knew that participating on the miles program, or not, is a prerogative of each developer? For example, most Campaigns don’t  accept or accrue miles  either .. will you stop purchasing Campaigns too? 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Rudel_chw

[Ignition]

Guys, don't be so angry. 56 U$S for a preorder is not so bad compared to the rest of the modules.

I guess most people don't remember but the F-14 on preorder was 70U$S.

Don't forget the cut of ED and the discounted price, if the 3rd party also sells its product on steam it has another 30% cut.

ED can sell on steam and use miles since no one else is taking a cut.

[IrishFatty]

Install standalone, seamlessly transfer all licenses from Steam and be done with it.  This happens every module release and there is an easy fix.  There is NO advantage to the Steam version of DCS that I know of but happy to be corrected.  #FOX3  See you in the skies.

[Rex]

1 hour ago, Ignition said:

Guys, don't be so angry. 56 U$S for a preorder is not so bad compared to the rest of the modules.

I guess most people don't remember but the F-14 on preorder was 70U$S.

Don't forget the cut of ED and the discounted price, if the 3rd party also sells its product on steam it has another 30% cut.

ED can sell on steam and use miles since no one else is taking a cut.

 

Angry?  I just "pre-bought" mine and even though the concept of "pre-buying" is still kind of silly to me, I've never been happier to part with sixty bucks in my life.  I mean, unless you count that night in Tijuana when I met this woman named Conchita who was a dead-ringer for a young Charro and when she asked if I had sixt ... you know, it's not important.

What is important is that the F15 has been my favorite plane for 30 years and I would have paid twice as much, twice as early (not that I'm you know, suggesting that), but who the hell could be angry now that this thing is closer to being reality?

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Rex

[Blinky.ben]

4 hours ago, Pvt Hudson said:

What car is being sold for $1 ? Hint for when you join the real world: none. Cars cost many 1000s to the consumer and they'll likely sell far more per copy than a DCS module.

 

These guys and gals will be using hardware used to scan textures, record sounds, write code, create 3d models etc, need licences for the software they use, pay rent and other bills if they have physical presence.

How rude of the developers, managers, testers, artists wanting to get paid.

Never mind some profit for the company to conduct future R&D, expand, pay employees for products in early development. 

 

This attitude that all software must be free or $1 is offensive, plain and simple

 

 

Lol talk about purposely missing the point. where did @VpR81 say it MUST be $1. They wrote

”In theory, they could sell each copy for $1.”

If you read the whole thing it has a non mistaken context to it, either you agree with it or not is another point. However not once did they say it must be free or $1. No need to be offended for your own reason anymore.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Blinky.ben

[Iron Sights]

This is just business. When you are producing a product for profit you cannot let someone else take that away from you. I understand the rationale around why it was done the way it was done at the time and maybe that was the hold up, in the end. I’m sure it will be fine in the long run. For me, I’m fine with everything that transpired today and in the end it is only a prerelease. Remember there will be an early access release as well. To all that are upset, go dust off that module you have never really played to tide you over. You know the one, we all have one.

[VpR81]

5 hours ago, Despayre said:

Sure... if you count all labour and research costs as free, and ignore the 1000's of man-hours that go into design, research, testing, and everything else, then ya, it could be sold for a dollar without a loss... however, that's not the world we live in.

They likely already have a pretty good idea of how many ppl are likely to buy the module, based on how many ppl play the game, and how many have bought recent previous modules etc, so, it's not about selling for as little as possible,  it's more about selling at a price that is commensurate with the other modules of similar quality, and if they can do that AND make money, everyone wins.

That´s not what i was saying. My point was, that the copy itself does not produce any costs in addition to the developement and they just need to sell enough copies to earn money. IMO, the price for the DCS modules is absolutely justified and i never demanded they should sell it for 1$. I just said, that in theory it would be possible to sell any software copy for 1$, IF enough copies are sold as sopftware copies do not have additional production costs for each single unit that has to be sold. At least for me, copying a file does not cost me any money at all while a physical product can not just be copied but has to be produced physically generating production costs in addition to the developement. That is not the case for a software copy. This and nothing else was my point.

5 hours ago, Foogle said:

The cost of developing a module is not small, and ED has numbers of how many copies of all modules are sold, and through that they can approximate how many will sell; so they can figure out how much the module should sell for to break even. If the Steam cut puts them below that threshold, then it's not financially reasonable to sell on that platform. 

 

That and, they already said when the module releases into EA, they will put it on steam with the standard 20% early access discount. So that breakpoint is somewhere between 49% (I messed up my earlier napkin math) and 56% of the retail price. 

 

The flight sim market is niche; no matter which way you cut it, there are only a finite number of people who will buy it. Selling at 1$ will never cover the cost to make the module.

Absolutely. As i already said, my point was not referring to the price itself, but to the statement they would sell copies on steam with a loss wich is just nonsense. DCS has roughly 26K reviews on Steam and since (IIRC) less than 10% of Steam players write reviews, this is a significant customer base. Selling it (in theory) for 1$ was just an example that if enough copies are sold, the price for the copy itself is totaly unimportant. Of course they wont sell enough copies of a DCS module so that 1$ will ever cover the costs of the development. 

[VpR81]

3 hours ago, Pvt Hudson said:

What car is being sold for $1 ? Hint for when you join the real world: none. Cars cost many 1000s to the consumer and they'll likely sell far more per copy than a DCS module.

 

These guys and gals will be using hardware used to scan textures, record sounds, write code, create 3d models etc, need licences for the software they use, pay rent and other bills if they have physical presence.

How rude of the developers, managers, testers, artists wanting to get paid.

Never mind some profit for the company to conduct future R&D, expand, pay employees for products in early development. 

 

This attitude that all software must be free or $1 is offensive, plain and simple

You obviously didn´t get my point. Read my comment again and try to understand it. I never said it must be sold for 1$. I was just giving an example that the price for a software copy is relying on the numbers of sold copies and nothing more while for a physical product (like a car), the production costs for each unit are a significant part of the price, in addition to the developement. This is not the case for software copies. Or can you tell me how much are the production costs for a software copy in addition to the developement costs? Last time i checked, it didn´t cost me any money to copy a file. Do you pay any money for copying a file on your computer? Again, i´m not demanding a lower price. The price is absolutely ok for me. My point was, that they would loose money by selling copies on steam is just nonsense. So much for joining the real world, sherlock. Next time follow the correct order: read, get the hang of what you are reading and then answer.

[Ignition]

1 hour ago, Rex said:

 

What is important is that the F15 has been my favorite plane for 30 years and I would have paid twice as much, twice as early (not that I'm you know, suggesting that), but who the hell could be angry now that this thing is closer to being reality?

 

I agree, I remember the hours playing with janes F-15. Since then the F-15E was one of my favorites.

[IanHx2]

25 minutes ago, Ignition said:

I agree, I remember the hours playing with janes F-15. Since then the F-15E was one of my favorites.

This does all rather highlight a Gulf War sized gap in the DCS World map coverage......