Rongor Posted June 26, 2023 Share Posted June 26, 2023 (edited) I didn't yet manage a takeoff without oscillating pitch angle after rotating. Also this doesn't get much better during cruise. Whenever I do pitch inputs with the stick, there is some odd reaction into the opposite direction after a few seconds. This is not happening with roll inputs. Edited June 26, 2023 by Rongor 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFirehawk Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 I'm wondering the same thing and would love to know as well. Pentium II 233Mhz | 16MB RAM | 14.4kb Modem | 1.44MB Floppy Disk Drive | Windows 3.1 with TM Warthog & TrackIR 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burt Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 Yeah I noticed it too, but it's a very new release still in testing and a lot updates going forward. I'm sure everything will get ironed out as time goes by cause these guys rock and one of the best on the team. ALIENWARE R11 - I9 10900KF @ 5.1 GHz - M.2 NVMe 2TB - RTX3090 - XFURY 64GB -3400 MHz RAM Monitor AW3420DW @ 120Hz - Virpil CM3 Throttle - TM TPR Rudder pedals - Virpil CM2 w/TM Hornet Stick Center - Monstertech Deck Mounts RealSimulator FSSB-R3 Lightning Base w/ F16SRGRH SideStick - VR user / Varjo Aero - Big Thx to mbucchia Start Date April 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vakarian Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 Are you guys maybe seeing something like this? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ameriveaux Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 For me its sort of like the FC3 Su27 or Mig29 or even the F16 if you use a non FBSS stick, the sensitivity and pitch behavior seems twitchy , you pull a little and the nose snaps up then sort of oscillates back to where it was - the Mirage , AV8B -F14 don't do this and the Mirage F1 does but its so miniscule I dont think about it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMO Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 +1 same for me, did a first familiarisation flight on the weekend and started without any curves on the axis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravencio Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 (edited) I ve noticed that too. Manual says that you should move one half stick aft at rotation speed, as you probably know. I ve been trying the last few days and if you release the joystick to it’s neutral position as soon as you feel the nose is high enough for the aircraft to leave the ground, makes it a really smooth take off with a 10-12 degrees attitude. i haven’t test it much during cruise. I am learning the basics first Edited June 27, 2023 by ravencio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven (Elysian Angel) Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 Indeed, I even went back to some older YT videos of preview builds and all of the take-offs are jittery as well. To me this looks like something that needs to be fixed: all other aircraft in DCS take off perfectly smoothly (including the F-15C). It seems the pitch-onset between "no input" and "just a little input" is far too sudden. 1 Spoiler Ryzen 9 5900X | 64GB G.Skill TridentZ 3600 | Gigabyte RX6900XT | ASUS ROG Strix X570-E GAMING | Samsung 990Pro 2TB + 960Pro 1TB NMVe | HP Reverb G2 Pro Flight Trainer Puma | VIRPIL MT-50CM2+3 base / CM2 x2 grip with 200 mm S-curve extension + CM3 throttle + CP2/3 + FSSB R3L + VPC Rotor TCS Plus base with SharKa-50 grip mounted on Monstertech MFC-1 | TPR rudder pedals OpenXR | PD 1.0 | 100% render resolution | DCS "HIGH" preset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainmaker Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 2 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said: Indeed, I even went back to some older YT videos of preview builds and all of the take-offs are jittery as well. To me this looks like something that needs to be fixed: all other aircraft in DCS take off perfectly smoothly (including the F-15C). It seems the pitch-onset between "no input" and "just a little input" is far too sudden. Pitch ratio is at it's max with the gear down. Most people that I see having issues are PIOing themselves because they are chasing the aircraft, they are not ahead of it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven (Elysian Angel) Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 So the current behaviour is correct? If so, it's unlike any other aircraft in DCS and will requires some serious getting used to, especially for take-off and AAR... (Perhaps it's not as noticeable with a TM Warthog, but I have a Virpil stick and it feels like there will be a 5 degree change in pitch if a mosquito bumps into it...) Spoiler Ryzen 9 5900X | 64GB G.Skill TridentZ 3600 | Gigabyte RX6900XT | ASUS ROG Strix X570-E GAMING | Samsung 990Pro 2TB + 960Pro 1TB NMVe | HP Reverb G2 Pro Flight Trainer Puma | VIRPIL MT-50CM2+3 base / CM2 x2 grip with 200 mm S-curve extension + CM3 throttle + CP2/3 + FSSB R3L + VPC Rotor TCS Plus base with SharKa-50 grip mounted on Monstertech MFC-1 | TPR rudder pedals OpenXR | PD 1.0 | 100% render resolution | DCS "HIGH" preset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirrah Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 1 minute ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said: (Perhaps it's not as noticeable with a TM Warthog, ... Oh yes it is Using a TM Warthog here and take-off is indeed quite a weird experience. As others mentioned, no smooth transition from weight on wheels to weight off wheels, but a sudden oscillating behavior. Even when not touching the stick when the aircraft starts rotating (basically ruling out PIO). Personally, I only experience this behavior on take-off. After that, when airborne, all is back to normal (slightly twitchy pitch, but just a matter of getting used to) So, did anyone at all manage a smooth take-off in the F-15E? Because if so, I must be doing something wrong (if I only knew what though ) 2 System specs: i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme - 650W PSU HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM ~ That nuke might not have been the best of ideas, Sir... the enemy is furious ~ GUMMBAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AhSoul Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 I don't think I've noticed this on take-off. IIRC it's been smooth. But I have noticed the oscillation during normal flight. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Soul's pit thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidrbarnette Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 33 minutes ago, sirrah said: Oh yes it is Using a TM Warthog here and take-off is indeed quite a weird experience. As others mentioned, no smooth transition from weight on wheels to weight off wheels, but a sudden oscillating behavior. Even when not touching the stick when the aircraft starts rotating (basically ruling out PIO). Personally, I only experience this behavior on take-off. After that, when airborne, all is back to normal (slightly twitchy pitch, but just a matter of getting used to) So, did anyone at all manage a smooth take-off in the F-15E? Because if so, I must be doing something wrong (if I only knew what though ) I agree, it is almost like the nose wheel is "sticky", and the back pressure releases the wheel from the ground all at once resulting in a sudden pitch-up movement. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizzRD Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 2 hours ago, sirrah said: So, did anyone at all manage a smooth take-off in the F-15E? Because if so, I must be doing something wrong (if I only knew what though Add 10 kts to the published TO speed and you´ll take off by the book. At rotation speed stick half way back and as soon the nose comes off the ground stick back to neutral. Right after hitting the gear lever start dialing down the TO trim and establish 10-12° flyout attitude. Works for me at all gross weights. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainmaker Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 Watch the pilots right arm during rotation and how stick pressure is released once rotation starts to catch the nose. 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven (Elysian Angel) Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 2 minutes ago, Rainmaker said: stick pressure is released once rotation starts to catch the nose Yes that's what I do in all aircraft, but in the DCS F-15E it seems the nose gear shock rebound is rocket-assisted In other words, it seems there is a built-in 10 degrees negative curve on the pitch axis. Roll is perfectly fine. For now I'll be testing a 10 degree positive curve on pitch... I shouldn't need to have it though, since I have a 200mm extension and the CM2 stick is pretty long by itself... 3 Spoiler Ryzen 9 5900X | 64GB G.Skill TridentZ 3600 | Gigabyte RX6900XT | ASUS ROG Strix X570-E GAMING | Samsung 990Pro 2TB + 960Pro 1TB NMVe | HP Reverb G2 Pro Flight Trainer Puma | VIRPIL MT-50CM2+3 base / CM2 x2 grip with 200 mm S-curve extension + CM3 throttle + CP2/3 + FSSB R3L + VPC Rotor TCS Plus base with SharKa-50 grip mounted on Monstertech MFC-1 | TPR rudder pedals OpenXR | PD 1.0 | 100% render resolution | DCS "HIGH" preset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainmaker Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said: Yes that's what I do in all aircraft, but in the DCS F-15E it seems the nose gear shock rebound is rocket-assisted In other words, it seems there is a built-in 10 degrees negative curve on the pitch axis. Roll is perfectly fine. For now I'll be testing a 10 degree positive curve on pitch... I shouldn't need to have it though, since I have a 200mm extension and the CM2 stick is pretty long by itself... I know which point you are probably referring to. The NW is already off the ground by that point. I am going to bring that part up to the FM person to ask him to make sure there are not any sudden gains somewhere in the FM. Can't speak to whether it will be noted as being correct as is or not. The jet is naturally pitch sensitive. Edited June 27, 2023 by Rainmaker 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven (Elysian Angel) Posted June 27, 2023 Share Posted June 27, 2023 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Rainmaker said: I am going to bring that part up to the FM person to ask him to make sure there are not any sudden gains somewhere in the FM. Thank you! If needed, you can watch some of the content creators' YT videos for reference: when they take off the nose "suddenly jumps up" as well, and I'd assume most of them are proficient enough these days in DCS to know how to take off smoothly. If the amount of stick travel (as far as that translates to what we arm-chair pilots use) vs the number of degrees of control surface deflection correlates with the real thing, we will have to adapt. If not, it would be great to have that corrected 42 minutes ago, Rainmaker said: The jet is naturally pitch sensitive. More so than the F-15C as modelled by ED? In the FC3 bird I don't need a curve for pitch, and I assume the PFM is correct there. Edited June 27, 2023 by Raven (Elysian Angel) addendum 2 Spoiler Ryzen 9 5900X | 64GB G.Skill TridentZ 3600 | Gigabyte RX6900XT | ASUS ROG Strix X570-E GAMING | Samsung 990Pro 2TB + 960Pro 1TB NMVe | HP Reverb G2 Pro Flight Trainer Puma | VIRPIL MT-50CM2+3 base / CM2 x2 grip with 200 mm S-curve extension + CM3 throttle + CP2/3 + FSSB R3L + VPC Rotor TCS Plus base with SharKa-50 grip mounted on Monstertech MFC-1 | TPR rudder pedals OpenXR | PD 1.0 | 100% render resolution | DCS "HIGH" preset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealius Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 Warthog on a 20cm extension here and I notice the same. In-flight it's easy to counter but takeoffs can be dicy. I've noticed the same pitch behavior on takeoff in the F1 and MiG-21. I might try the slight pitch curve as well, since that helped a lot for me with other pitch-sensitive aircraft like the F1, MiG-21, Mosquito, and P-47. As for the FC3 F-15C modeling, I recall an SME had posted something about errors in the pitch CAS modeling so I wouldn't compare it to the F-15E right now. That said, M2000 and Harrier have gone through extensive FM tuning since their release, so we could expect the same for the Mudhen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death Merchant Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 14 hours ago, WizzRD said: Add 10 kts to the published TO speed and you´ll take off by the book. At rotation speed stick half way back and as soon the nose comes off the ground stick back to neutral. Right after hitting the gear lever start dialing down the TO trim and establish 10-12° flyout attitude. Works for me at all gross weights. How does one find the TO speed? I haven't been able to find any info on speeds for TO, climb, cruise, etc. Is there info on typical mission profiles for speeds and altitudes? I typically fly the F-18 via the FPAS page. [PC] ASUS X570E - Ryzen 9 5950X - RX 6900 XT - 32GB 3600Mhz Hornet, A-4E-C, Huey, Ka-50, Mi-8, F-15E, F-14 Join us on Death Dealers PvE server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holbeach Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Death Merchant said: How does one find the TO speed? I haven't been able to find any info on speeds for TO, climb, cruise, etc. Is there info on typical mission profiles for speeds and altitudes? I typically fly the F-18 via the FPAS page. 70000lb. T/O. Set T/O trim. Full AB. At rotation speed, 155 kts give half stick for 1 sec. for 12 deg attitude. Nose wheel lift off at 170 kts. Lift off at 190 kts. Gear up, flaps up, trim fwd. From the RL manual. Works perfectly. .. 4 4 I7 2600K @ 3.8, CoolerMaster 212X, EVGA GTX 1070 8gb. RAM 16gb Corsair, 1kw PSU. 2 x WD SSD. 1 x Samsung M2 NVMe. 3 x HDD. Saitek X-52. Saitek Pro Flight pedals. CH Flight Sim yoke. TrackIR 5. Win 10 Pro. IIyama 1080p. MSAA x 2, SSAA x 1.5. Settings High. Harrier/Spitfire/Beaufighter/The Channel, fanboy.. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant977 Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 Where did you get those speeds from nothing in the appendix or in normal procedures. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holbeach Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 21 minutes ago, grant977 said: Where did you get those speeds from nothing in the appendix or in normal procedures. B3-10. .. I7 2600K @ 3.8, CoolerMaster 212X, EVGA GTX 1070 8gb. RAM 16gb Corsair, 1kw PSU. 2 x WD SSD. 1 x Samsung M2 NVMe. 3 x HDD. Saitek X-52. Saitek Pro Flight pedals. CH Flight Sim yoke. TrackIR 5. Win 10 Pro. IIyama 1080p. MSAA x 2, SSAA x 1.5. Settings High. Harrier/Spitfire/Beaufighter/The Channel, fanboy.. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dentedend10 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 On 6/27/2023 at 12:42 PM, Rainmaker said: Watch the pilots right arm during rotation and how stick pressure is released once rotation starts to catch the nose. This helped me quite a bit, the oscillations are 90% gone. 10% is probably PIO Thanks! 1 Alienware Aurora R10, Ryzen 5800X3D, RTX4080, 32GB RAM, Pimax Crystal, Winwing F18 throttle, VKB Gunfighter F14 Stick, VKB Modern Combat Grip, Logitech Rudder pedals, DOF Reality H3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thx1137 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 15 hours ago, Holbeach said: 70000lb. T/O. Set T/O trim. Full AB. At rotation speed, 155 kts give half stick for 1 sec. for 12 deg attitude. Nose wheel lift off at 170 kts. Lift off at 190 kts. Gear up, flaps up, trim fwd. From the RL manual. Works perfectly. .. Thanks for that. This beast is certainly different. I think we are mostly used to an aircrafts nose rising at rotation speed quickly followed by the mains. But in this case you need to wait a little longer and not play with the pitch to force the aircraft into the air. Then, relax the pitch and don't push it down. I find it hard to describe but being smooth is key too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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