waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[theIRIEone]

16 hours ago, Major_Mayhem said:

You know this doesn't have to have anything to do with who is in the right or the wrong.

Razbam stopped supporting/developing their products to punish the player base, so that the player base would put pressure on Eagle Dynamics motivating them (ED) to give Razbam what they want.

I don't think Razbam's intention was "to punish the player base", i think they merely want to get paid.

It's funny how you start off with stating that "this doesn't have to have anything to do with who is in the right or the wrong" and then continue to paint Razbam as the pure evil here.


This isn't the first dispute / non-agreement ED has with another company, and won't be the last neither. 

Remember: If you're holding a monopoly, you get to make the rules, no matter how exploitative they may be - that's not me claiming knowing anything about ED's B2B practices, i don't.. But i remember VRS Varmint statement on why their Superhornet [long before DCS Hornet was a thing] never got ported into DCS, for example. Obviously it's been a looooong time since then, companies and business practices change, but that old story in combination with other things i have witnessed during the F/A-18C's development for example makes me believe it's unfair to blame Razbam in all of this.

Just a feeling, though, nothing more than that.

[Dangermouseb51]

Get  is sorted, people have invested a lot of time and money in your platform and to see another VEAO Hawk Scenario is taking the piss.... 

[vparez]

I will wait until ED and RB solve this.

If they dont, DCS is dead to me and I will never give money to either ED or RB ever again in any sim.

Gents, solve this.

[MAXsenna]

Really? Should Ponzi really buy ED? 
 

Nah, RB! Not ED.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[IceyJones]

vor 40 Minuten schrieb AJaromir:

RB must withdraw the product. They are the ones who own it and thus decide whether or not it will be sold.

THEY have removed the product from the DCS page on their homepage!

its ED that keeps them in the shops here

[Jackjack171]

Oh well, I took a chance on RB. I knew better from the old FSX/P3D days. I had hoped that this time would be different, maybe I was wrong, maybe! This is a legal process between two companies. Anyone that knows about business knows that a lot cannot be discussed. Patience should be exercised as litigation takes a while.

Life still goes on and I have a ton of modules. Not going to cry about a situation that could happen at any time. Speaking to the abandonment of ED would be very childish and foot stomping of me if I went that route. 

Let the 2 companies hash it out. This thread is 50 pages full of speculation and foot stomping that will not make the answers come any faster. And I would bet that any given answer other than "the party is back on' will not satiate some.

Now, I have a Phantom and Kiowa to crash...maybe!

[J3ST3R]

100% Agree with everything Spud said in his video. ED and Razbam need to come together and tell their users what is going on. This really could kill the game for everyone! The users, Ed and all 3rd parties. People are not going to trust them with their money if a few months after they pay out for a module, it just goes for whatever reason. 

[Ornithopter]

14 minutes ago, J3ST3R said:

100% Agree with everything Spud said in his video. ED and Razbam need to come together and tell their users what is going on. This really could kill the game for everyone! The users, Ed and all 3rd parties. People are not going to trust them with their money if a few months after they pay out for a module, it just goes for whatever reason. 

 

This seems like a really unrealistic point of view.  "Kill the game for everyone" ?  I can't speak for others, but I'm enjoying the heck out of the F-4 and several other modules, some third party, some ED.  I'm keeping my eye on the situation, and yes, I'm on verge of asking for a refund, but life goes on.  If people want to make a stand of "I'll never buy another modules from ED ever again", thats their choice, but this end-of-the-world for DCS talk is just nonsense.  That said, I agree that some statement would be a good thing, and I do hope the situation is resolved.

[Buzzer1977]

I'm still hoping that given the importance of the Razbam product catalogue to DCS a third party like Heatblur steps up and buys out the Razbam modules. The F-15E with Jester 2.0 would be nice ...

 

[Fropa]

I have been a loyal Eagle Dynamics customer for over 6 years, and I want my Strike Eagle purchase refunded or credited to my store account. I would never have purchased it if I knew some dispute like this would happen, rendering my purchase unsupported and soon-to-be dead at any patch update. What's worse is that this product, and all of Razbam's products, are still being offered for purchase by Eagle Dynamics on their "E-Shop" page. At best, that is incredibly poor, bad-faith marketing. At worst, it is fraud. @NineLine, @BIGNEWY, please do the right thing. Your reputations, as well as the reputation of your company, depend on it. The entire DCS community is watching.

 

Edited June 7, 2024 by Fropa

[razo+r]

Contact EDs customer support on the main website. 

[Predator-78]

Many have requested a refund... did you get it? If so, did they refund you money or credit your personal account?

[av8orDave]

I have no idea of the actual facts behind the disagreement between Razbam and ED. I'd wager that no one on this forum knows all the facts, particularly not Razbam's SMEs who seem to constantly chime in with their beliefs of the reality of the situation. I also will say I am regularly very critical of ED, at least when they deserve it, which a search of my post and comment history would show. 

Having said that: I can almost promise you that any reputable legal counsel would be advising ED to absolutely not comment publicly about the situation any more than they already have, and would likely also advise them not to remove Razbam's modules from their digital store, as for all we know, that may put ED in breach of whatever agreement they have with Razbam or could be interpreted poorly in legal proceedings. 

If you are expecting some kind of update or change on the store, I think you may be waiting a while. If the situation has entered the legal realm, legal proceedings take significant amounts of time, and I would think there would be little to no public communications about the situation until significant progress has been made.

[Horns]

On 6/5/2024 at 8:00 AM, RaisedByWolves said:

They should keep selling razbam modules. Razbam  probably need the money. Wouldn’t want to see razbam under the queensboro bridge giving handjobs to bums.

#Razbum?  

[hollow]

Just asked for a refund. I hope they won`t give me the store credits as I will absolutely not buy any additional modules, nor from ED nor from 3rd parties after the Razbam fiasco.

[sarumax]

future is.. no future, the good thing is, probably, that with RAZBAM gone we could get some other module maker to get us a mirage-2000-5 and we can get revenge on those freak f-18s for their spamrams

[ChuckJäger]

I worry if asking for a refund at this point (this is only my perspective) makes matters worse.  The whole of this issue seems to be based around payment to RAZBAM for a product that they claim they haven't received.  If all of us go rushing in to get our money back, then they definitely will not be renumerated for the work they did.

This is a mess, and with the recent posts from the youtubers (CASMO, HIP, Spud) who brought me to DCS - I wonder if it's not a glimpse into a significant issue with this model as a whole (DCS.)  I have purchased just about every module that has hit the DCS store, and I'm beginning to wonder if I can trust that these purchases were sound as the future for DCS seems a little shaky. 

To Spud's point - there needs to be some resolution or some joint statement that there is progress being made. 

This is so unfortunate because it was just getting really good.........

 

12 minutes ago, Predator-78 said:

Many have requested a refund... did you get it? If so, did they refund you money or credit your personal account?

I believe they provide a store credit.

Edited June 7, 2024 by ChuckJäger

[Art-J]

Since neither ED as a publisher, nor Razbam as a contractor / developer are registered in UE, that 2-year UE law doesn't apply anyway.

As noted above, you can request a refund, albeit whether you will receive it and in what form (credit / miles seem to be th most common outcome) is to be determined on individual user case basis.

[Focha]

1 minute ago, Art-J said:

Since neither ED as a publisher, nor Razbam as a contractor / developer are registered in UE, that 2-year UE law doesn't apply anyway.

As noted above, you can request a refund, albeit whether you will receive it and in what form (credit / miles seem to be th most common outcome) is to be determined on individual user case basis.

EU consumer rules cover goods and services that have been bought in the EU. However, if you buy from a non-EU online trader who has specifically targeted EU consumers you should also be covered by EU rules, but you may find it difficult to assert your rights with a trader who is based outside the EU.

4 minutes ago, ChuckJäger said:

I worry if asking for a refund at this point (this is only my perspective) makes matters worse.  The whole of this issue seems to be based around payment to RAZBAM for a product that they claim they haven't received.  If all of us go rushing in to get our money back, then they definitely will not be renumerated for the work they did.

This is a mess, and with the recent posts from the youtubers (CASMO, HIP, Spud) who brought me to DCS - I wonder if it's not a glimpse into a significant issue with this model as whole (DCS.)  I have purchased just about every module that has hit the DCS store, and I'm beginning to wonder if I can trust that these purchases were sound as the future for DCS seems a little shaky. 

To Spud's point - there needs to be some resolution or some joint statement that there is progress being made. 

This is so unfortunate because it was just getting really good.........

That is not our problem as consumers. That is a problem that RAZBAM and ED need to solve. If this is getting both companies a bad reputation, that should be a risk assessment that should be made earlier. As a consumer, your only problem is getting what was advertised in a reasonable amount of time.

[5ephir0th]

16 minutes ago, Predator-78 said:

Many have requested a refund... did you get it? If so, did they refund you money or credit your personal account?

Store credit for me, invested on a module being developed currently

6 minutes ago, ChuckJäger said:

I worry if asking for a refund at this point (this is only my perspective) makes matters worse.  The whole of this issue seems to be based around payment to RAZBAM for a product that they claim they haven't received.  If all of us go rushing in to get our money back, then they definitely will not be renumerated for the work they did.

To be honest, at least for me, it doesnt matter if its ED or RazBam fault, im a customer and RazBam stated on their first public announce that they stop giving support to their products, i gave an amount of time i thinks its enough and then asked for refund

[vvm13]

4 hours ago, PhantomHans said:

Personally I'd like to see a few guarantees from Eagle Dynamics:

1. A guarantee that any and all modules, 3rd party or not, will continue to be developed until the core functions of the aircraft are usable.

2. A guarantee that no module will be left, now or in the future, without bug fix support until the end of DCS.

3. Finally, a guarantee that DCS will never become an unplayable, unusable, abandoned game.

 

In short, they do an infinite amount of work for a finite amount of money, and even death is not an excuse.

[Stubbies2003]

45 minutes ago, Ornithopter said:

 

This seems like a really unrealistic point of view.  "Kill the game for everyone" ?  I can't speak for others, but I'm enjoying the heck out of the F-4 and several other modules, some third party, some ED.  I'm keeping my eye on the situation, and yes, I'm on verge of asking for a refund, but life goes on.  If people want to make a stand of "I'll never buy another modules from ED ever again", thats their choice, but this end-of-the-world for DCS talk is just nonsense.  That said, I agree that some statement would be a good thing, and I do hope the situation is resolved.

 

While it might not kill it all the simple fact of the matter is this isn't the first time there has been an issue and the "solution" to the hawk module was rather trash.  If it all went sideways between Razbam and ED and the much bigger modules from Razbam ended up going the way of the hawk module I just wouldn't be able to trust the setup with my cash for a third party developer if there was no recourse other than to run an older DCS install simply to be able to use modules I've paid for.  I overlooked it with the hawk module because it was just a trainer but if the same thing happens again and I lose the AV-8B and the F-15E then sorry but no third party developed module would be worthy of that trust and cash any more.  I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks this way and the flight sim community isn't so large that they can just throw away customers like that.

So is it likely that it would kill DCS?  Probably not.  However there is a non zero chance that it could get that bad.  If DCS lost it's third party support for lack of purchases I don't know if ED's work alone is enough to keep the lights on for DCS.

Edited June 7, 2024 by Stubbies2003

[Boosterdog]

39 minutes ago, J3ST3R said:

100% Agree with everything Spud said in his video. ED and Razbam need to come together and tell their users what is going on. This really could kill the game for everyone! The users, Ed and all 3rd parties. People are not going to trust them with their money if a few months after they pay out for a module, it just goes for whatever reason. 

It hard not to agree since he says absolutley nothing new or remotely interesting. 

The situation is worrying. Yup.

Refunds should be given. Yup. 

There are risks buying from smalll companies servng a niche market. Really,,,,wow?

ED are unlikely to take on development of someone elses project over and above making it work patch to patch. Yeah, I bought DCS WW2 as well. 

Click bait video that didnt need to be made. 

 

[BIGNEWY]

34 minutes ago, Fropa said:

I have been a loyal Eagle Dynamics customer for over 6 years, and I want my Strike Eagle purchase refunded or credited to my store account. I would never have purchased it if I knew some dispute like this would happen, rendering my purchase unsupported and soon-to-be dead at any patch update. What's worse is that this product, and all of Razbam's products, are still being offered for purchase by Eagle Dynamics on their "E-Shop" page. At best, that is incredibly poor, bad-faith marketing. At worst, it is fraud. @NineLine, @BIGNEWY, please do the right thing. Your reputations, as well as the reputation of your company, depend on it. The entire DCS community is watching.

 

 

I am sorry to see you are upset, however the situation is not that simple, and we are hopeful for a good outcome.

If you want to consider a refund for the F-15E please contact support directly, please bear in mind there is a queue and it will take some time. 

thank you

[Maverick_NL]

@BIGNEWY

I understand that the situation is complex, but the uncertainty has been dragging on for too long. Can you indicate when we can expect clarity on the outcome? It is important for me and other customers to know when this issue will be resolved.

Edited June 7, 2024 by Maverick_NL