Eagle Dynamics, please remember your promises

[cfrag]

Hey all -- 
I'm a fan of ED's products, and a DCS nut. I love flying, I love creating missions, I host two public dedicated servers (at >100 USD/month), I adore most of the modules for DCS - and own them all (yeah, that includes the Hawk).

As the year is drawing to an end I looked at my hangar, and thought "well, there now sure seem to be a *lot* of unfinished 'Early Access' titles in here". A full 18 of them are slowly leaking an ever-increasing bit of frustration onto the well-lit floor. 

To me, each and every Early Access title that ED sell to me comes with a promise: that they will work diligently to finish as quickly as possible. Why do I think that? 

Quote

The time a product remains in Early Access can vary widely based on the scope of the project, technical hurdles, and how complete the module is when it enters Early Access. Eagle Dynamics and all of our third parties strive to make this period as short as possible.

[source: Eagle Dynamics Home Page]

Being an Engineer by trade (even though I'm a management goon for the past 30 years) I took stock of my EA module stable, fired up Excel (don't judge) -- and these are the cold hard numbers:

Top Sheet Results:
I currently own 18 EA modules that have accumulated 49 Years of EA Time. That is a lot, and my tiny mind immediately spat out another number: 
Assuming (educated guess) that the EA models on average require an effort of 18 person months to complete, ED's total Early Access Debt (to complete all modules) are 27 person years. 

So please hear my plea: 
Dear ED, please remember the promises you made to me and all your customers. I understand that you must sell modules to survive. And please understand that I also measure your efforts on how well you keep your promises. In that regard I think you can and should improve; the numbers currently are not in your favor, I know that you can do better. 

Please strive to be better in 2025 and the years that follow. I think it would befit a company of your status and reputation to reduce the Early Access Debt at the end of 2025 by 10 years, to 17, and I think it realistic that you can get under 10 years by the end of 2026. 

Here are the numbers, lest you want to check them yourself

Module		Released		EA Time (Years)		Remarks
F-16		2019		5
F4E		2024		0.5
F-15E		2023		1		Assumed discontinued
Mirage F-1		2022		2
Mosquito		2021		3
JF-17		2019		5
F-14		2019		5
YAK-52		2018		6
AJS Viggen		2017		7
CH-47 Chinook		2024		0.5
AH-64 Apache		2022		2
Mi-24 HIND		2021		3
Afghanistan		2024		0.5
Kola		2024		0.5
Sinai		2023		1
Normandy 2		2023		1
South Atlantic		2022		2		Assumed discontinued
Super Carrier		2020		4
Total EA Modules		18		Products
Total EA Time		49		Years
Est'd Backlog		27		FTE		(1 FTE ~ 1 Person Year)

Data Source: Eagle Dynamics Web Site, as of November 2024

Yes, it's a simplistic world view (I am a manager after all). I hold ED accountable for everything that they sold me. I do not care if some subcontractor acted up. IMHO, ED are run by adults, and they know what accountability means: no excuses, no finger-pointing. They took my money, they made the promises, and I think they are good for the trust that I placed in them to keep them.

And occasionally, they may need a soft push to remember that we believe in them and have not forgotten their promises.

Edited January 17 by cfrag

[razo+r]

(Don't forget the WWII assets pack that itself alone adds another 7 years of EA)

[Blackfyre]

I'm not sure what "Early Access" does really mean. For example, Hind looks more finished than Hornet to me (aside the manual part), and yet the former is EA and the latter is released. I wish released status implied some stability in terms of bugs in basic features. But it is not the case (see F-18).
Anyhow, I'd like to see ED prioritized finishing modules over making new ones. But money talks overwise, I guess.

[42jeff]

Sidekick made a great video about this exact topic a couple weeks ago.  You guys both make excellent points.

 

 

[Pavlin_33]

It's not ED's fault, it's our fault as the consumers. Simply don't buy early access and you will force them to ship out only finished products.

EA is nothing more than a promise and there is no guarantee that this promisse will be fulfilled.

[Steel Jaw]

Where's my Hornet DTC.

[Coxy_99]

Im going to shoot myself in the foot, Correct me if im wrong, But please find me any post that ED have promised anything? Im not saying the OP is wrong, But some stated fact would be cool.

[silverdevil]

25 minutes ago, Coxy_99 said:

Im going to shoot myself in the foot, Correct me if im wrong, But please find me any post that ED have promised anything? Im not saying the OP is wrong, But some stated fact would be cool.

besides the Im going to shoot myself in the foot comment (  ) i agree. i have been with DCS for a while and there has never been anyone from ED making any promises on EA modules. for obvious reasons.

it is easy for us to anonymously sit in our cosy game rooms and complain about this and that.

also there is nothing in the End-User License Agreement or Terms of service with any mention of EA. so by buying and installing a product, you have agreed to said contracts.

Edited December 1, 2024 by silverdevil

[Coxy_99]

Exactly soon as you hit the buy button you signed the EULA and it states in there, That if said product dies you dont get your money back so technically ED are being generous with store credit also for a said module. I dont think they even have to do that or refund (But thats a different story) Its why for me ive certainly held off until the core gets better and things are done, But certainly no promises. As per comments said we all have a choice to buy EA or not, But its not promised to be finished in X amount of time.

[Retnek]

Looks like a misunderstanding ... I read "promises" not in a sense of "legal obligation" describing a case of "consumer protection". It's a weaker expression and more demanding at the same time. A niche-product like DCS needs a solid long-term business model - that very much depends on the trust of the customers ED will fulfil promises. Selling a product in "Early Access" firmly includes the promise I can use it with reference to reality and history - one fine day! For me that day generally is late after a year, maybe two with good reasons.

I feel no need to accuse ED in a legal case because of a broken promise. Without satisfied promises my trust simply will vanish. Together with my will to learn new modules, try new maps, fly new campaigns. It's not about money or some legal stuff. It's about the will to invest my precious spare-time to master a complex simulation. Years of waiting for unfinished features and no fixes for obvious bugs in the core-module etc. - that's broken promises to me.

I'd gladly spend some money to help out of the vicious circle of pumping out unfinished Early Access modules to acquire some cash. ED, please offer some "core customers programs" like

- a solid reorganisation of all the dropping ordnance in DCS including fuses, a proper documentation and access for developers and modders

- same for guided AA-missiles, AG-missiles etc pp

- an ATC where C is not for "confusion"

- some progress in ECM including features given in the "Electronic War Jamming Script V2.0", f.e.

- a reliable concept how to model piston-engines

I'm not into the details and there's no need to. ED, please offer some programs as given above. Name some features of a long-lasting shortage in the core module to be enhanced or even solved by that program. And name a price, finally. Feel free to offer it as a monthly subscription for a fixed period, a 20 €-invest or simply ask for donations. I won't care if you accomplish the promise with your own staff, third-party-developers or by contracting a crew of talented customers from the forums. Deliver the promised features just in time. And there will be plenty of trust.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Retnek

[Viper33]

On 12/1/2024 at 4:02 PM, Pavlin_33 said:

It's not ED's fault, it's our fault as the consumers. Simply don't buy early access and you will force them to ship out only finished products.

EA is nothing more than a promise and there is no guarantee that this promisse will be fulfilled.

Absolutely correct but we all know this won't ever change because consumerism is driven by human nature which will never change. 

[Pavlin_33]

On 12/3/2024 at 5:24 PM, Viper33 said:

Absolutely correct but we all know this won't ever change because consumerism is driven by human nature which will never change. 

I wonder how many people would buy an early access mobile phone, car or an operating system for example.

I would like to think not many, but who knows?

[Hiob]

7 minutes ago, Pavlin_33 said:

I wonder how many people would buy an early access mobile phone, car or an operating system for example.

I would like to think not many, but who knows?

Computer games are content.

Mobile Phones and Operating Systems are tools.

Apart from that, tell me an OS that isn’t/ wasn’t in perpetual “early access” until replaced or abandoned.

[Czar66]

Looks like many of you would not survive DCS A-10C and Ka-50 early days.

[Dragon1-1]

On 1/7/2025 at 11:02 PM, Pavlin_33 said:

I wonder how many people would buy an early access mobile phone, car or an operating system for example.

I would like to think not many, but who knows?

OSes are perpetually "in development", they actually charge full price for Windows, and yet release major updates, sometimes removing functionality (something few games in EA would have gotten away with). If OSes were released like games are, you'd never see something like scrubbing WMR from Windows, or any of the plethora of useless "features" they keep adding. Quite frankly, it'd have been better that way.

The others are only constrained by the difficulty of making major updates to physical pieces of hardware. The "move fast and break things" philosophy from the software world is already increasingly being applied there, with similar results - a quickly thrown together base that is then developed around, resulting in fundamentally flawed designs. EA would have been a logical next step, if that pesky physical reality didn't intrude.

[mondaysoff]

On 1/7/2025 at 10:24 PM, Czar66 said:

Looks like many of you would not survive DCS A-10C and Ka-50 early days.

Ah yes, my first two purchases 15 years ago, they still don’t have pilots.

[Hotdognz]

Ah yes, my first two purchases 15 years ago, they still don’t have pilots.

No money in it.

Sent from my CPH2333 using Tapatalk

[cfrag]

On 12/1/2024 at 4:15 PM, Coxy_99 said:

please find me any post that ED have promised anything? Im not saying the OP is wrong, But some stated fact would be cool.

When I say "promise" I'm not talking about a legally binding, enforceable contract. I'm talking about a loose understanding made in mutual trust and respect. For example, when ED state on their home page that, with regards to how long EA would last they tell me

Quote

Eagle Dynamics and all of our third parties strive to make this period as short as possible.

[source: EA home page. Interestingly enough, I cannot link directly, as that link is blocked by ED. So here's a screen shot, yellow is from me

]

I fully accept 'as short as possible' to have a loose meaning and I contend that it includes goodwill on both sides. They already have mine: I purchased. 

It's like a friend telling me "if you ever need help, call me at any time, and I'll be there for you". It's a non-binding understanding of mutual trust and respect: I won't call for silly things, and my friend reliably has my back in times of need. Now, some friends are good to their word, others...

After more than 5 years of waiting for some EA modules that I purchased to improve, with ED it feels like I've called them, and they weren't there for me. It's not the end of the world, but disappointing. I lose trust in them, perhaps some respect too. We are still friendly. And I wish that we could return to the time when I felt that their word had some worth. I'm hoping that the implied (and unenforceable) promise of "as short as possible" may become something meaningful. To me, ED's "as short has possible" now is an empty phrase, just marketing speak - devoid of meaning.

I'm hopeful that ED can fill this void and I'm hopeful that they start now, in 2025.  

 

Edited January 11 by cfrag

[NineLine]

5 hours ago, cfrag said:

When I say "promise" I'm not talking about a legally binding, enforceable contract. I'm talking about a loose understanding made in mutual trust and respect. For example, when ED state on their home page that, with regards to how long EA would last they tell me

I fully accept 'as short as possible' to have a loose meaning and I contend that it includes goodwill on both sides. They already have mine: I purchased. 

It's like a friend telling me "if you ever need help, call me at any time, and I'll be there for you". It's a non-binding understanding of mutual trust and respect: I won't call for silly things, and my friend reliably has my back in times of need. Now, some friends are good to their word, others...

After more than 5 years of waiting for some EA modules that I purchased to improve, with ED it feels like I've called them, and they weren't there for me. It's not the end of the world, but disappointing. I lose trust in them, perhaps some respect too. We are still friendly. And I wish that we could return to the time when I felt that their word had some worth. I'm hoping that the implied (and unenforceable) promise of "as short as possible" may become something meaningful. To me, ED's "as short has possible" now is an empty phrase, just marketing speak - devoid of meaning.

I'm hopeful that ED can fill this void and I'm hopeful that they start now, in 2025.  

 

What modules in Early Access have gone 5 years with no improvements?

[cfrag]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

What modules in Early Access have gone 5 years with no improvements?

The Yak-52 has gone 7 years without becoming final, and with no damage model to speak of...

And what is the intended timeline for finalizing the Viggen? It's also 7 years since I purchased it in EA.

Edited January 11 by cfrag

[Hotdognz]

7 hours ago, cfrag said:

The Yak-52 has gone 7 years without becoming final, and with no damage model to speak of...

And what is the intended timeline for finalizing the Viggen? It's also 7 years since I purchased it in EA.

I was going to post the same thing about the Yak52, but they fixed 2 broken things in a December patch so will consider that improvements to the model enough to warranty it staying in EA

[SharpeXB]

If you ask me, appreciating DCS means living in the moment. Yeah it’s great to know that new things are always on the horizon but there’s so much to do already in the sim that it’s not worth spending time worrying about the future.

Edited January 12 by SharpeXB

[Beirut]

On 1/11/2025 at 5:48 PM, cfrag said:

The Yak-52 has gone 7 years without becoming final, and with no damage model to speak of...

 

I called the secret reveal for the 2025 video as being he Yak-52 getting illuminated cockpit dials. 

[KenaiPhoenix]

This is a problem with todays industry: the unfinished status of most of all products, and it has been getting worse now that we are on the age of "Live services" that translate to "unfinished but with a reason".

 

the problem is the lack of communication and commitment. The moment you put something on the store and ask for the price they are asking (which is not cheap by any means), you ahve to deliver. So when the product is not just there but also there is a radio silence about its development people are going to lose trust and people will get upset.

Maybe they have to switch their business model or they development process. Or (on the best of the worlds) they will continue developing those models and on this 2025 we will see more of those modules finished. Personally mainly fly on South Pacific, so having a full release would be nice.

[JohnMclane]

I mean, no one is forced to buy EA modules... I'd rather have the option to buy them before they are finished, in the end I get to decide.