Aerial refuelling question.

[clanitho]

Hello everyone, I have a question about aerial refueling, when the tanker indicates an altitude of 18,000 feet for example, is it the altitude of the tanker or the altitude at which I must be?

Is it a barometric or radar altitude?

Thanks in advance.

[Shimmergloom667]

It is the tanker altitude in feet MSL barometric. I mean: in the end you will be in about the same altitude as well, of course.

[clanitho]

6 hours ago, Shimmergloom667 said:

It is the tanker altitude in feet MSL barometric. I mean: in the end you will be in about the same altitude as well, of course.

Ok, thanks.

[Yurgon]

It's worth noting that tankers sometimes seem to be confused in DCS. Quite often they say they're at 20,00 feet when my altimeter shows something like 18,800 instead, while flying off their wing. That is also the case when QNH deviates only very mildly from the standard pressure setting and could not explain an altimeter deviation of 1,000 feet.

 

In the A-10, that's a bit of a problem. In the Hornet, you should look at the tanker in your air-to-air radar as you approach it and verify the altitude he's at, so you don't accidentally bump into him in case of an overshoot or bad visibility.

[VDV]

One thing that I always was wondering is why in DCS tankers almost always makes turn, just when u`re refueling...Refueling is hard enought, and this turn makes is twice harder.

And everyone knows, that in real life tankers flying straight, not making any turns durring the refueling.

[Yurgon]

3 minutes ago, VDV said:

And everyone knows, that in real life tankers flying straight, not making any turns durring the refueling.

 

Then I don't belong to this group called everyone.

 

This certainly isn't a US Navy video, but the tanker in this case is clearly turning with the receivers connected (check 1:32:35 for the moment they're entering a turn):

 

 

 

You also get an understanding of the refueling track and that they actually have to turn at some point so they don't leave their assigned airspace, if you watch the whole video.

 

It's my understanding that the US armed forces tend to do it in pretty much the same way (or rather, the Germans adopted the way the US and NATO in general tend to operate).

 

Besides, tankers in DCS only turn with an appropriate waypoint action, which has to be set by the mission designer. The reason that most mission designers do indeed put tankers onto racetrack orbits with 20 to 30 nautical mile legs is that, as I understand it, that's the way refueling tracks are usually set up in the real world.

[Shimmergloom667]

14 hours ago, VDV said:

One thing that I always was wondering is why in DCS tankers almost always makes turn, just when u`re refueling...Refueling is hard enought, and this turn makes is twice harder.

And everyone knows, that in real life tankers flying straight, not making any turns durring the refueling.

 

Tankers absolutely do turn in real life while refueling.

 

The one thing they usually do is call out an upcoming turn on freq.

 

That said: refueling in a bank is the same as refueling in a straight line, just with a canted horizon. You still make the same adjustments and look for the same cues. It's even easier at night, where you just look at the tanker anyways.

[Steel Jaw]

I have long since mastered boom AAR in BMS but find the the basket AAR in DCSW to be darn near impossible, even with wake turbulence disabled.

[Foka]

Refueling on Hornet is quite easy (yes, I know that's easy to say when I know how to do it now, but it was long learning process) - when you connect to the basket it's easy to stay in even during turns. The trick is not to stay in place when you connected, but crawl forward to the half of pipe lenght, so you have spare for ane mistakes.

 

AAR on boom is much harder for me (I also fly A-10C and I'm learning Viper), because connecting is quite easy - you don't have to hit the boom, boom operator does it for you, but staying in right place for whole process is a nighmare. With a basket when you connect, you can do a barrell roll and stay connected

[fagulha]

On 10/8/2021 at 6:05 PM, VDV said:

One thing that I always was wondering is why in DCS tankers almost always makes turn, just when u`re refueling...Refueling is hard enought, and this turn makes is twice harder.

And everyone knows, that in real life tankers flying straight, not making any turns durring the refueling.

That´s not correct.

[randomTOTEN]

9 hours ago, Mower said:

I have long since mastered boom AAR in BMS but find the the basket AAR in DCSW to be darn near impossible, even with wake turbulence disabled.

What's your specific problem with it? Probe and Drogue is so so much easier than the boom for me...

[rob10]

12 hours ago, Mower said:

I have long since mastered boom AAR in BMS but find the the basket AAR in DCSW to be darn near impossible, even with wake turbulence disabled.

The 1st key while learning is DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT, and a third time so you really get it , DO NOT look at the basket when you're trying to connect.  Keep your eyes on the tanker and use your peripheral vision to line up the probe and basket.  That way you'll be less likely to over correct when lining the two up -- you're more likely to make the small movements you need.  Once you've gotten the hang of AAR, then you can directly look at the basket and line it up, but when I'm having a bad AAR day and getting into PIO'ing, I fall back to not looking at the basket to get it back together.  The 2nd key, as Foka said, is to push forward so you get a bit of slack in the hose which gives you a tiny amount of reaction time before you disconnect (rather than no time).

Tanking on the turn is easy if you just treat the wings of the tanker as your artificial horizon.  As long as they look level in your view you're matching the tanker so you're good.  Easy peasy, except of course that you also need to make sure you're not getting too close or falling too far behind and disconnecting

[pete_auau]

errr iam the opposite  and  always look at the  basket at  night or  day usually  i get  it  first  time  9  out of  10 times,  although iam using  vr  which is  alot  easier

[maxTRX]

14 hours ago, rob10 said:

...Tanking on the turn is easy if you just treat the wings of the tanker as your artificial horizon.  As long as they look level in your view you're matching the tanker so you're good...

 

Once you connect, it's easier to focus on some spot on a tanker, a refueling pod for instance and keep it aligned with top of your HUD or just below canopy bow (depending on a tanker).

Following the wings of a tanker might be tricky since they don't really turn at the same rate for a given bank as our Hornets do. On top of that... AI flight model.  Also, in case of KC135 MPRS, the wing dihedral might throw you off.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Gripes323
typo

[rob10]

12 hours ago, pete_auau said:

errr iam the opposite  and  always look at the  basket at  night or  day usually  i get  it  first  time  9  out of  10 times,  although iam using  vr  which is  alot  easier

Absolutely, I look at the basket all the time when I AAR now that I can consistently do it.  As I said, the don't look at the basket advice is while 1st learning how to do it.  I'm in 2D, so can't comment on learning in VR.

[Ourorborus]

On 10/9/2021 at 2:55 AM, Yurgon said:

It's worth noting that tankers sometimes seem to be confused in DCS. Quite often they say they're at 20,00 feet when my altimeter shows something like 18,800 instead, while flying off their wing. That is also the case when QNH deviates only very mildly from the standard pressure setting and could not explain an altimeter deviation of 1,000 feet.

 

In the A-10, that's a bit of a problem. In the Hornet, you should look at the tanker in your air-to-air radar as you approach it and verify the altitude he's at, so you don't accidentally bump into him in case of an overshoot or bad visibility.

I also find that. But then I find altitude references a bit all over the place in DCS. I have never been bothered to crunch the numbers on the error but I always figured it was either the tanker was reporting actual (GPS/Measured with an infitiately perfect ruler) altitude sourced from the game engine as opposed to the pressure altitude displayed in my cockpit. Or it could be that the Tanker has listened to the ludicrous ATIS and set QFE instead of QNH.

 

Either way it has never stopped me finding the block of flats in the sky.

[Dragon1-1]

TBH, as far as turning goes, I'd say that tankers in DCS don't turn enough. A real tanker has a decent, visible angle of bank, transitions in a pretty snappy manner, and tells you before it does, so that you're not surprised. In DCS, it banks very slowly and ends up at a shallow angle of bank, so not only does the turn take forever, but it's just slow and gentle enough to throw you off without you noticing what it's doing. IMO, this actually makes refueling in a turn harder than it should be.

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

On 10/8/2021 at 7:05 PM, VDV said:

One thing that I always was wondering is why in DCS tankers almost always makes turn, just when u`re refueling...Refueling is hard enought, and this turn makes is twice harder.

And everyone knows, that in real life tankers flying straight, not making any turns durring the refueling.

A great, great, great book about military refuelling ops is "Tanker Pilot" by Mark Hasara

https://markhasara.com/book/

Fully recommended.

 

[Scaley]

So the "it's really hard to refuel" topic comes up fairly regularly.  Generally the problems I see when teaching people fall into one of two categories:
1) Wrong technique from the start - including things like view zoomed in way too far, not having any good references on the tanker, looking at the basket

2) Not enough practice

A lot of people think that it all comes down to practice, but if you aren't clear what you are practising you won't make progress.  If you're struggling then the things to do (in order) are:

• Check you have the correct technique - loads of youtube videos out there
• Check you have solid contact references.  By that I mean you know EXACTLY where you are supposed to be in relation to the tanker to get in the basket, and what bits of the tanker you are lining up with what bits of you jet so that you arrive exactly at that spot. 
• Find some solid "stay connected" references.  These are talked about less, but clearly the references for getting in the basket are at the very back edge of the area the basket will go.  You can move up/forward/left/right with quite a lot of freedom.  You need to find a second set of references for the middle of that zone.  For finding references one technique is to play back screen-recordings of your flight and see what the picture looked like at the moment you hit the basket.  Then freeze a frame and search for some things to line up with some things...
• Finally - practice.  Ideally start off WITHOUT the basket trailed, so just sitting in formation with the tanker at you contact references, then at you "stay connected" references.  Once you can do that solidly then add the basket into the mix and it should be relatively straightforward.  

[cajundave]

If you haven't tried it already, practice off of the KC-130 instead of the KC-135 or S-3.  The wing of the C-130 is nearly perfectly horizontal and makes a great reference point.  I can usually align the top of the HUD with the wing, and follow that C-130 through any maneuver it tries.  Once you get good at that, the others are a little easier.

[Taz1004]

On 10/27/2021 at 12:41 PM, Scaley said:

So the "it's really hard to refuel" topic comes up fairly regularly.  Generally the problems I see when teaching people fall into one of two categories:
1) Wrong technique from the start - including things like view zoomed in way too far, not having any good references on the tanker, looking at the basket

2) Not enough practice

A lot of people think that it all comes down to practice, but if you aren't clear what you are practising you won't make progress.  If you're struggling then the things to do (in order) are:

• Check you have the correct technique - loads of youtube videos out there
• Check you have solid contact references.  By that I mean you know EXACTLY where you are supposed to be in relation to the tanker to get in the basket, and what bits of the tanker you are lining up with what bits of you jet so that you arrive exactly at that spot. 
• Find some solid "stay connected" references.  These are talked about less, but clearly the references for getting in the basket are at the very back edge of the area the basket will go.  You can move up/forward/left/right with quite a lot of freedom.  You need to find a second set of references for the middle of that zone.  For finding references one technique is to play back screen-recordings of your flight and see what the picture looked like at the moment you hit the basket.  Then freeze a frame and search for some things to line up with some things...
• Finally - practice.  Ideally start off WITHOUT the basket trailed, so just sitting in formation with the tanker at you contact references, then at you "stay connected" references.  Once you can do that solidly then add the basket into the mix and it should be relatively straightforward.  

I agree with practice but as for technique, what works for some doesn't always work for others.  Typical "Use peripheral vision" thing doesn't work for me.  Maybe I lack the peripheral vision.  After failing that for hours on end, I realized that focusing on flight path marker and basket works far better for me.  Similar to carrier landing.  I haven't failed to connect since.  Navy pilots require certain skill set, general public do not and there are many different type of people.

I don't believe there is right or wrong or bad habit.  Just find a method that works for you.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Taz1004

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

9 hours ago, cajundave said:

If you haven't tried it already, practice off of the KC-130 instead of the KC-135 or S-3.  The wing of the C-130 is nearly perfectly horizontal and makes a great reference point.  I can usually align the top of the HUD with the wing, and follow that C-130 through any maneuver it tries.  Once you get good at that, the others are a little easier.

So true, kc130 is great for first tries

[Swift.]

On 10/28/2021 at 7:17 PM, Taz1004 said:

I agree with practice but as for technique, what works for some doesn't always work for others.  Typical "Use peripheral vision" thing doesn't work for me.  Maybe I lack the peripheral vision.  After failing that for hours on end, I realized that focusing on flight path marker and basket works far better for me.  I haven't failed to connect since.  Navy pilots require certain skill set, general public do not and there are many different type of people.

I don't believe there is right or wrong or bad habit.  Just find a method that works for you.

 

What I've noticed is that those who tend to PIO are better off not looking at the basket, but if you aren't likely to initiate a PIO then looking at the basket is easier because you can actually see where you are going.

Personally I like to avoid staring at one thing for too long, by glancing at everything, I find I have a better appraisal of the relative movement. Doesn't help so much for hitting  the basket, but helps keeping it stable.

[Taz1004]

6 hours ago, Swiftwin9s said:

What I've noticed is that those who tend to PIO are better off not looking at the basket, but if you aren't likely to initiate a PIO then looking at the basket is easier because you can actually see where you are going.

Personally I like to avoid staring at one thing for too long, by glancing at everything, I find I have a better appraisal of the relative movement. Doesn't help so much for hitting  the basket, but helps keeping it stable.

To me, it's no different than carrier landing.

[Cathnan]

I've learned it first in the Hornet using the tanker as reference. And I must say, I'm glad I learned it that way. I got the Harrier during the sale right now, and I'd say it took me about 30 attempts to plug. Being used to have the tanker as reference helped me here for sure because in the Harrier the basket is outside of peripheral vision while you're plugged. Of course always do what works for you. Imo this is just something to think about while teaching someone. They may want to learn a module later in which you can't see the basket.