OH-6A by Tobsen and Eightball

[Abburo]

@tobi I think that @zaelu found a good catch earlier and the VC Zis 150 AAA is indeed overpowered in its config file. As can be seen in comparison picture below, it does not look that a small truck like that can carry big 57mm guns as those on the ZSU... still the config file of Zis 150 shows a 57 mm gun configuration. Maybe as a note for the next patch :).

Also one great think i did not noticed until now is that the VC Zis 150 AAA can stay covered while "green", while turning it to red it has a good animation to reveal its hidden threat :)... great work on this!

By the time of fixing it... is a great trolling unit

Edited January 1 by Abburo

[zaelu]

Funny thing is I tried to man that unit and shoot but it has so much recoil it almost turn the truck upside-down after each shot and I don't think I can hit something in the air at any distance after a first lucky shot.

Edited January 1 by zaelu

[Abburo]

8 hours ago, zaelu said:

Funny thing is I tried to man that unit and shoot but it has so much recoil it almost turn the truck upside-down after each shot and I don't think I can hit something in the air at any distance after a first lucky shot.

You may use the recoil to move the truck forward/backward as well

[ggrewe]

3 hours ago, Abburo said:

You may use the recoil to move the truck forward/backward as well

So "R" is for rapid-fire and rapid-reverse?

[DmitriKozlowsky]

If you have Syria map. Please take a look at this track. Above 125 knots, and at 130 OH6 experienced retreating blade stall with unrecoverable roll. The rotor stops turning.

Note how fast it goes from stable fwd flight to catastrophic roll, with very little warning. My immidiate action is reduce collective and pull back on cyclic to reduce speed. But often this is not enough to arrest.

OH6A_rBladeStall_130knots.trk

[Ithronwise]

25 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

If you have Syria map. Please take a look at this track. Above 125 knots, and at 130 OH6 experienced retreating blade stall with unrecoverable roll. The rotor stops turning.

Note how fast it goes from stable fwd flight to catastrophic roll, with very little warning. My immidiate action is reduce collective and pull back on cyclic to reduce speed. But often this is not enough to arrest.

130 knots is the maximum cruise speed for the OH-6A, you should never exceed it.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Yes I know that 130 is the Vne. But note how fast the helicopter goes from controlled forward flight to uncontrolled roll. Within a second. There is very little of a ny transition zone.

In my experience 115 knots is max stable safe cruise speed in DCS:OH-6A. At 120 it becomes offy. At 125 its difficult. At 130 you are dead.

I have a feature request.

When OH-6A is 'armed' with cargo or passengers, and aicraft is landed, and sitting on ground. With or without turning rotors. Add command under Main menu to unload passengers or cargo. 

[tobi]

4 hours ago, Ithronwise said:

130 knots is the maximum cruise speed for the OH-6A, you should never exceed it.

It is 121.

[Ithronwise]

18 minutes ago, tobi said:

It is 121.

The sources I found are all saying 130 knots.

https://www.ultimatespecs.com/aircraft-specs/mcdonnell-douglas/mcdonnell-douglas-hughes-oh-6-cayuse-1965

https://www.williammaloney.com/Aviation/WingsOfEaglesMuseum/HughesOH6ACayuseHelicopter/index.htm (150 mph = 130 knots)

https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/hughes-oh-6-cayuse/

http://www.fergworld.com/oh-6a/

Edited January 9 by Ithronwise

[tobi]

5 minutes ago, Ithronwise said:

The sources I found are all saying 130 knots.

https://www.ultimatespecs.com/aircraft-specs/mcdonnell-douglas/mcdonnell-douglas-hughes-oh-6-cayuse-1965

https://www.williammaloney.com/Aviation/WingsOfEaglesMuseum/HughesOH6ACayuseHelicopter/index.htm (150 mph = 130 knots)

https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/hughes-oh-6-cayuse/

http://www.fergworld.com/oh-6a/

nullOperational manual

Anyways. Limiting effects depend also on enviromental conditions

[Ithronwise]

1 minute ago, tobi said:

Operational manual

Ok, convinced. @DmitriKozlowsky In this case, you shouldn't be surprised that your airframe goes out of control if you exceed the specifications so far.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Its around 120 knots Vne. Above that expect to crash&burn. Pretty consistent for me. THe track has helo loaded with cargo + 40% fuel and is at 90% GW. QNH is 3012 with winds at 7 m/s (13-15 knots) gusty, at Paphos. Mission is to deliver cargo from sea level tohelipad at 6150' or so.  IMHO, coning of main rotor is not sufficiently simmed or shown.

I don't think real OH-6A or MD-500 civi would be that unsafe. But its OK, I still love that mod. Among my favorites.

Here is a question to rotorheads. Do helicopters (pilot) care about true and calibrated airspeed?

[tobi]

4 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Yes I know that 130 is the Vne. But note how fast the helicopter goes from controlled forward flight to uncontrolled roll. Within a second. There is very little of a ny transition zone.

In my experience 115 knots is max stable safe cruise speed in DCS:OH-6A. At 120 it becomes offy. At 125 its difficult. At 130 you are dead.

I have a feature request.

When OH-6A is 'armed' with cargo or passengers, and aicraft is landed, and sitting on ground. With or without turning rotors. Add command under Main menu to unload passengers or cargo. 

You do not even take the time to answer any of my questions to you but you ask me to implement a feature for you? You are a miracle

[Tonker]

7 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

120 knots Vne

 

7 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I don't think real OH-6A or MD-500 civi would be that unsafe.

Velocity never exceed.

'Cos it's unsafe. You can try your luck with the structural engineering behind G limits, but there's no luck behind the calculated and calibrated VNE.

Which I think you know. So. Is the question about the speed at which the effect kicks in in DCS? Is it about the way the effect kicks in in DCS? Is it about the severity with which it kicks in in DCS? Is it something else?

No time to watch the track tonight, but I'll try to grab a few mins to crash a Loach or few. From memory the implementation is pretty damned good - excessive vibration into pitch up into uncontrolled roll - so I can't quite see what the issue is.

Keep at it @tobi, if there's a miracle here it's your (plural) mod and the way it puts ED to shame. More power to your collective elbows!

 

EDIT: Using @Mistermann and co's Into the Jungle mission*; Andersen AFB slots; default loadout, fuel etc; just doing laps of the field at about 1000'

• Trimming to stable flight c.120 indicated is possible
• Holding stable flight to c.135 indicated is possible
• At that speed the poor Loach is shaking more than Ole Shaky herself, it is clear that all is not well
• Normal flight regime can be resumed by lowering collective and gentle aft cyclic
• Further FO results in near-immediate F'ingO - I didn't notice much of a pitch-up moment, but definitely noticed the roll
• Pucker Factor = oops.

The behaviour seems about right, as do the numbers. There will be SMEs out there who are qualified to talk about the accuracy of this, and about overall feel. I am not one. End result...exceed VNE and die. Ideal.

 

*As I assume we all have it. If not you're missing out, it's ace, even as a solo playground.

 

 

 

Edited January 10 by Tonker

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, Tonker said:

No time to watch the track tonight, but I'll try to grab a few mins to crash a Loach or few. From memory the implementation is pretty damned good - excessive vibration into pitch up into uncontrolled roll - so I can't quite see what the issue is.

I did test it. Down low, (ground effect?), I pushed it above 140 a couple of times, and it would slighty roll to the left. Easy to recover. 

Higher up I crashed the first time, the next few times I saw it coming, lowered the collective a little, recovered every time. Not so easy this time though. Once I had to have my cyclic all the way to the right. Even had to move my leg, like the animations in the Kiowa. Happened between 130 and 140. Under no circumstances did I get a pitch up, but that might be due to the fact that my cyclic was pretty much all the way forward.

Love this little thing!

[Tonker]

Nice one @MAXsenna! 

My memory is at fault re the pitch up - IIRC it's a standard response to RBS regardless of airframe, but very happy to be corrected - but it seems like we were getting the same kind of behaviours in the same kinds of regime, and leaving DCS with the same kind of smile on our faces

[DmitriKozlowsky]

My SOP, to best of my ability when task saturated, is to keep loach below 120. My personal Vne for OH6 is 115, regardless of GW and weather. However either due to inattention or wind turbulence, at times,my speed creeps up above 120 or jumps above 120 quickly. In that case, I immidiaately lower collective, and back stick on cyclic (moderately) to slow down. For some reason, that does not work every time. Often it does, more then sometimes it does not. So what happens next, and it is reflected in track, is the OH6 becomes a bucking bonco. It pitches up severely, rolls severely, then spins such so that rotor stops. I have UH-1H, AH-64D, KA-50III,  and Gazelle. I have exceeded Vne in KA-50 and know how to handle. In Kamov there is clear multiscond shake, rattle, and roll, that is correctable by lowering collective, and slight back on cyclic. UH-1H won't break its Vne, unless in a dive, or collective maxed out. and I don't do that. Apache does not have enough power to exceed Vne in level flight in DCS. Not in my hands anyway, and I tried.  But OH-6A mod will exceed its safe Vne in level fwd flight, and thus speed has to be watched like a hawk. Things can go from 'all is well' to 'catastrophe' in a second or less.  Concetration on flying, not looking around. I appreciate that. It requires discipline. I love this mod. Margin of safety is low at 120 knots IAS, and that has me thinking that Army and Government would not certify real world helicopter. So my assumption is that in RW in real OH-6 or MD-500 there is a warning transition period, that allows pilot to recover. In mean time, its back to YouTube helicopter videos on RBS recovery procedures in R44 trainer. In RW, I would never set foot in a Robinson. Any Robinson. Scariest helicopter , ever. But watching students and CFI struggle with helicopter emergencies at edge of life, is perversely fun.

Edited January 10 by DmitriKozlowsky

[tobi]

5 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

My SOP, to best of my ability when task saturated, is to keep loach below 120. My personal Vne for OH6 is 115, regardless of GW and weather. However either due to inattention or wind turbulence, at times,my speed creeps up above 120 or jumps above 120 quickly. In that case, I immidiaately lower collective, and back stick on cyclic (moderately) to slow down. For some reason, that does not work every time. Often it does, more then sometimes it does not. So what happens next, and it is reflected in track, is the OH6 becomes a bucking bonco. It pitches up severely, rolls severely, then spins such so that rotor stops. I have UH-1H, AH-64D, KA-50III,  and Gazelle. I have exceeded Vne in KA-50 and know how to handle. In Kamov there is clear multiscond shake, rattle, and roll, that is correctable by lowering collective, and slight back on cyclic. UH-1H won't break its Vne, unless in a dive, or collective maxed out. and I don't do that. Apache does not have enough power to exceed Vne in level flight in DCS. Not in my hands anyway, and I tried.  But OH-6A mod will exceed its safe Vne in level fwd flight, and thus speed has to be watched like a hawk. Things can go from 'all is well' to 'catastrophe' in a second or less.  Concetration on flying, not looking around. I appreciate that. It requires discipline. I love this mod. Margin of safety is low at 120 knots IAS, and that has me thinking that Army and Government would not certify real world helicopter. So my assumption is that in RW in real OH-6 or MD-500 there is a warning transition period, that allows pilot to recover. I mean time, its back to YouTube helicopter videos on RBS recovery procedures in R44 trainer. In RW, I would never set foot in a Robinson. Any Robinson. Scariest helicopter , ever. But watching students and CFI struggle with helicopter emergencies at edge of life, is perversely fun.

Me and other user can fly 135. No problem. Watch out for vibrations. Topic closed.  

[Devil 505]

First flight of the new year gents! @tobi @Eight Ball If you guys need a fey boys to test the new/upcoming Little Bird in VR, we are intimately involved with the Cayuse every week.  Would love to be a test bed if you need one for the Iraq or Afghanistan map.  We also use the UH-60 mod so we could get some good shots of both in flight together. 

 

[CommandT]

Did a little Police chase with the OH-6
 
@Eight Ball Are the dinosaurs coming soon so that I could make a Jurassic Park mission? (I won't shoot them! I promise!  )

 

[Tonker]

Just hopping in to say a) the OH-6A deserved a shoutout in '2025 and Beyond' vid, much as the A4 did a year or two ago, and b) whilst there's plenty in there to look forward to I found little to get excited about. So I'm hopping into the Cayuse to tear it up round @Mistermann, @Devil 505 and co's Into the Jungle. Cos that is always exciting.

Well done on all you've achieved this year @tobi and @Eight Ball, here's to 2025 and beyond for you guys!

[Devil 505]

3 hours ago, Tonker said:

Just hopping in to say a) the OH-6A deserved a shoutout in '2025 and Beyond' vid, much as the A4 did a year or two ago, and b) whilst there's plenty in there to look forward to I found little to get excited about. So I'm hopping into the Cayuse to tear it up round @Mistermann, @Devil 505 and co's Into the Jungle. Cos that is always exciting.

Thank you so much and I agree the OH-6 deserved a big shout out! Really appreciate the comments about Into The Jungle! It made our night.  We just flew it as well tearing it up in the A-4 flying CAS over the Cayuse.  I am looking forward to ViolentNomads @ViolentNomad Cobra more than anything on the 2025 and Beyond video today.  Its little sister is missing her in ITJ! 

@tobi @Eight Ball Please keep up the great work and bringing us the amazing content you guys are pushing out.  I will take anything Vietnam or Little Bird Era! You guys make our Vietnam dreams come true! 

[Tonker]

Some random unsolicited thoughts on possible improvements to the mod, based on being able to grab an hour or so on consecutive days to fly the Cayuse recently.

I'm coming at it from the PoV of a) being a muppet, b) being pretty limited in available time for DCS and c) being keen on systems and the immersion that comes from using them, but often floored by not being an expert on the systems or how they should work...probably a pretty standard baseline DCSer. So the below are mostly thoughts on how to lower the barrier to entry for newcomers to get the most out of the OH-6A as smoothly and quickly as possible. Yes it's patronising, yes it requires effort by some to reduce effort for others etc etc etc, but I've appreciated this in other aircraft, and think others might for the Loach.

Lastly none of this is in any way a gripe. We all know this is the best helicopter in the sim with the best helicopter flight dynamics. De facto the best helicopter simulation in the world. Not bad for a free 'community' mod! These are just a collection of little things that have crossed my mind as I've got back into DCS and back into the Cayuse. If you have other ideas do feel free to let me know/post below and I'll edit this post to collate all our thoughts in one place.

 

Suggestions - community (stuff we can do, or have done but which is yet to be included in the base OH-6A download)

• Full Kneeboard Checklists
  • The A4 is perhaps the best community example to aim for. I don't have the F4 but is the in-cockpit checklist/manual function a possibility, or for SDK-equiped devs only?
  • See @GrEaSeLiTeNiN's Start Up Checklist here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3340687/
  • See @Sydy's Quick Start Checklists here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3341989/
• Full PDF Guide, inc. useful resources
  • @Charly_Owl's brilliant guides are rightly famous as best-in-class and, properly credited, would make for a good template to work towards
  • See @MadCartographer's excellent-looking manual here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3342341/ (which I've only just found, reading now...)
  • @GrEaSeLiTeNiN has also made a useful-looking profile for the Warthog, worthy of mention as I gather some potential resources in this post, here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3340696/
  • @MadKreator has a Helios profile, also worthy of mention, here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3341970/
• Expanded tutorials
  • The start-up and weapons tutorials are good, the included Playground mission great for testing skills, but a full suite of specific tutorials would be great to help those like me really get into the guts of all this amazing rendition of the OH-6 has to offer
  • Examples I'd benefit from: systems, particularly radio and nav*; search light; float ops; advanced techniques (failure recovery, adverse weather, constrained LZ etc)
  • Examples of what to aim for come from the prolific tutorialiser @Rudel_chw, as many of us know from other modules!

*Are the FM and UFH radios now fully implemented? The An/ARC-83 ADF? I've lost track of what's still planned and what's done, forgive me. I'm keen on my navigation, F10 is such an immersion-breaker, so would enjoy using the on-board systems to get about/work out just how lost I am and/or find those wayward downed pilots etc

• Expanded mission set
  • It'd be great to include a few missions with the download to let the newcomer get stuck in with their new-found skills, and to show off things like the fantastic in-cab cargos etc, some livery use-cases (air ambulance, Jurrasic Park tour guide etc... ; )
  • Maybe even a campaign...?! A textbook go to would be one made up of progressive training missions; a 'stretch goal' might be deployment to put the training into action
  • I won't do too much name dropping here, but the User Files section (and this thread) has a few notably repeat offenders

FWIW I'm a lippy b*gger (you'll have noticed...) and would be very happy to help with the writing/editing/researching etc for the documents. I don't yet know enough to take the lead, but this is a short-term me problem, learning is always a possibility! Also, I'd like to start learning the mission editor, and it's long struck me that making tutorial missions is a pretty good way into this - fairly simple and limited in scope, but still possible to ramp up immersion, learn and use complex triggers etc. I'd throw my hat in the ring as being somewhere I could contribute as a stretch goal, but timeframe unknown.

 

Suggestions - devs (stuff we can't)

• Expanded control binding options - again the A4 is perhaps the best example of this, where there are multiple input options making for very flexible control bindings
• Minigunner body
• Method to remove cargo/PAX loadouts on the fly
• Audio cue for landing light switch (?)
• Does the damage model have some tweaks remaining? It's a bit disconcerting to find myself upside-down looking at treetrunks as the Cayuse bounces around on the deck! I also noticed that a section of canopy which gets shot away is that with the greasedot aim mark on it. Possible to remove the greasedot as part of the damage/move the damage textures so they don't overlap the greasedot? Such a tiny thing, I know, but s'all about the immersion
• I'm uncertain if anything remains on the to-do/bugfix list. I appreciate the Little Bird is the focus.
• Have a well deserved beer. Honestly, the Cayuse is so bloody good! I'd be embarrased to tell you how long I spend just rocking the collective and watching her go light on the skids as the blades cone

 

Cheers and gone!

Edited January 21 by Tonker

[CommandT]

Sorry to be spamming with more OH-6 shenanigans, but, couldn't help myself
 

 
Any timeline at all of the Little Bird or any of the other assets? Still eagerly awaiting the dinosaurs! 

[CommandT]

It's been eerie quiet over here. How's that MH-6 coming along?