Force Trim

[BIGNEWY]

40 minutes ago, pii said:

"with instant you dont recenter, its instantly trimmed, so is best for FFB sticks"

It works quite well for spring centering sticks also, It's what I am using and I don't have a FFB stick. I figure if its good enough for Cosmo it's good enough for me. ")

 

Whatever works best for you is fine with me

[pii]

55 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Whatever works best for you is fine with me

Wasn't about me its the fact that it sounded like it had to be used with FFB in the post which it does not. I think you would agree with that?

[Outlaw24]

I've been using the instant/FFB option ever since the release of the Ka-50 with my Warthog and now with my VKB Ultimate controller. I never could get use to the return to center option. 

[DTS_Maton]

is it just me or are more people having problems with the trim function 

when i have a stable position or flight and press trim hold 

the current position becomes the new neutral with joystick inputs compounded on top of that sending you into some very rough flight 

in the black shark you set trim to current stick positions this just feels more natural

[Ram69]

Are you using the "Central position trimmer mode"? If that is selected, then you return the stick to center before your controls will work again. That can prevent the sudden lurching. 

With the option that is selected by default, you have to return to center very quickly (forget the timing, but within a half a second I think) or else you'll get that lurch as continued input would compound onto the new trim position, as you mentioned. 

Central position mode basically turns off your controller input until you first return your stick back to center. 

[t1mb0b]

you missed the 26 pages ?

Edited April 6, 2022 by t1mb0b

[aleader]

15 minutes ago, t1mb0b said:

you missed the 26 pages ?

 

Always some Jabroni referencing the manual when someone asks a question on a forum   Moderator, please shut the forums down as all we really need is the manual apparently.  Seriously, what kind of idiot asks a question on a forum!?  Anyways, there is a sticky in the main forum on this subject.  Just change to Central Position Trimmer in the options menu and it will behave like the Ka 50.  Why this is not the default position in the game is beyond me, yet it seems like every time they release a helicopter it's like this.  It would save SO MANY forum posts and confusion if ED would just do this...

[Sarge55]

Apache Trim... is that some kind of haircut? 

Just some levity to a deteriorating thread.

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Sarge55

[Sacarino111]

3 hours ago, Sarge55 said:

Apache Trim... is that some kind of haircut? 

Great! 

[LooseSeal]

6 hours ago, aleader said:

Always some Jabroni referencing the manual when someone asks a question on a forum  

He didn't reference the manual, though. He referred the OP to a very long thread which is actually pinned right at the top of the forum for a reason.

If he'd said 'go check the manual', the criticism would have been due. But he didn't.

[aleader]

On 4/6/2022 at 4:01 PM, LooseSeal said:

He didn't reference the manual, though. He referred the OP to a very long thread which is actually pinned right at the top of the forum for a reason.

If he'd said 'go check the manual', the criticism would have been due. But he didn't.

Semantics.  There's already a thread on trim (that references the manual), so nobody can ever again ask a trim question without some Jabroni referencing the thread that he has already seen 

Edited April 8, 2022 by aleader

[Hammer1-1]

On 4/2/2022 at 2:44 PM, pii said:

Wasn't about me its the fact that it sounded like it had to be used with FFB in the post which it does not. I think you would agree with that?

its not so much "had" as it is "should".

[RuskyV]

Why not have a trim system that just allows you to centre the stick separate to either of the current options, the bit I don’t get is why freeze the controls on one setting and on the other add in the extra deflection.

Is there really any need for the added complexity of either systems? Why not trim and have neither side effects.

im sure there is a deep rooted answer beyond my understanding otherwise it would already be an option no?

[MAXsenna]

On 4/6/2022 at 5:05 PM, aleader said:

Always some Jabroni referencing the manual when someone asks a question on a forum   Moderator, please shut the forums down as all we really need is the manual apparently.  Seriously, what kind of idiot asks a question on a forum!?  Anyways, there is a sticky in the main forum on this subject.  Just change to Central Position Trimmer in the options menu and it will behave like the Ka 50.  Why this is not the default position in the game is beyond me, yet it seems like every time they release a helicopter it's like this.  It would save SO MANY forum posts and confusion if ED would just do this...

Probably because someone like me hates the central position trim. 

In the Ka-50, as soon as learned to hold the trim button, release it when I was happy, quickly center the stick, and press the trim button again, before I moved the stick. Rinse and repeat. I found that the most easy way of flying the Shark. Pretty much how I still do it in every helicopter even with my FFB stick. Except for the Apache. It just really awkward doing it with the hat, but I'm sure I'll get used to it, but I find that I hardly actually need to trim it the way it is now.  

If it is true that you need to centre the stick even quicker with the Apache than people are used to, I can see an issue. 

Anyway, for those of you who struggle. Try like in the Ka-50. Use the default, and whenvee you move the stick, hold the trim button, and quickly release it and centre the stick when you are trimmed. With a try?  

27 minutes ago, RuskyV said:

Why not have a trim system that just allows you to centre the stick separate to either of the current options, the bit I don’t get is why freeze the controls on one setting and on the other add in the extra deflection.

Is there really any need for the added complexity of either systems? Why not trim and have neither side effects.

im sure there is a deep rooted answer beyond my understanding otherwise it would already be an option no?

Seems like you are describing the option without springs nor FFB. 

I'm probably missing something in what you say.  

[Frederf]

3 hours ago, RuskyV said:

Why not have a trim system that just allows you to centre the stick separate to either of the current options, the bit I don’t get is why freeze the controls on one setting and on the other add in the extra deflection.

Realize that the Apache stick doesn't center when the trim button is pressed. If it was 25% deflected and trimmed, it's still 25% deflected. It is our simple spring joysticks which don't behave properly. If input was +0.1 and then trim is pressed, what happens? With instant you get 0.1 as the new center and instant +0.1 for 0.2 total. With freeze the input isn't added until it returns to (essentially) 0. At some point the position of the cyclic has to be a different relationship to input after trim compared to before time.

I think the lock-and-window type scheme is unacceptable that it prevents any control input until you hit a window. Instant has an unfortunate upset where the relationship is changed suddenly but the user is still in control. The old Ka-50 method of a time-based blended transition was a better version of instant. I think there could be a better version with blending that was smart, based on how the user was moving the stick back to neutral instead of a "blind" blending based on time.

[Hammer1-1]

53 minutes ago, Frederf said:

 

I think the lock-and-window type scheme is unacceptable that it prevents any control input until you hit a window.

if your aircraft is trimmed, you shouldnt have to worry about centering your joystick for a brief moment.

[RuskyV]

1 hour ago, Hammer1-1 said:

if your aircraft is trimmed, you shouldnt have to worry about centering your joystick for a brief moment.

This is what I’m really talking about, why not have a trim allow the joystick be in the position you left it until you move it back to centre without any of the penalties. A lot of the issues people have had with the trim have all been around the behaviour of either options. 

[Dangerzone]

3 minutes ago, RuskyV said:

This is what I’m really talking about, why not have a trim allow the joystick be in the position you left it until you move it back to centre without any of the penalties. A lot of the issues people have had with the trim have all been around the behaviour of either options. 

That's how Central position trimmer mode works. You hit trim - joystick is in the position left until you move it back to the center. I'm just confused as to what other penalties do you have with central trimmer mode? 

[RuskyV]

12 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

That's how Central position trimmer mode works. You hit trim - joystick is in the position left until you move it back to the center. I'm just confused as to what other penalties do you have with central trimmer mode? 

I understand both options, what I'm trying to say is why do the trim options have either of the two side effects after trimming?

 

15 hours ago, Frederf said:

Realize that the Apache stick doesn't center when the trim button is pressed. If it was 25% deflected and trimmed, it's still 25% deflected. It is our simple spring joysticks which don't behave properly. If input was +0.1 and then trim is pressed, what happens? With instant you get 0.1 as the new center and instant +0.1 for 0.2 total. With freeze the input isn't added until it returns to (essentially) 0. At some point the position of the cyclic has to be a different relationship to input after trim compared to before time.

I think the lock-and-window type scheme is unacceptable that it prevents any control input until you hit a window. Instant has an unfortunate upset where the relationship is changed suddenly but the user is still in control. The old Ka-50 method of a time-based blended transition was a better version of instant. I think there could be a better version with blending that was smart, based on how the user was moving the stick back to neutral instead of a "blind" blending based on time.

Wouldn't a better method be to blend both options? or even better have the FFB friendly option minus the stick input back towards centre as this is where your joystick is going to go anyway.

[Dangerzone]

1 hour ago, RuskyV said:

I understand both options, what I'm trying to say is why do the trim options have either of the two side effects after trimming?

What side effects please?

[Frederf]

1 hour ago, RuskyV said:

I understand both options, what I'm trying to say is why do the trim options have either of the two side effects after trimming?

 

Wouldn't a better method be to blend both options? or even better have the FFB friendly option minus the stick input back towards centre as this is where your joystick is going to go anyway.

I kind of agree but I don't see what you mean specifically. Ultimately the input has to return to zero if the cyclic is going to stay at the center of the artificial feel middle. If you could express your idea mathematically I could think about it better.

[Whisper]

On 4/10/2022 at 2:25 AM, RuskyV said:

Why not have a trim system that just allows you to centre the stick separate to either of the current options, the bit I don’t get is why freeze the controls on one setting and on the other add in the extra deflection.

Is there really any need for the added complexity of either systems? Why not trim and have neither side effects.

im sure there is a deep rooted answer beyond my understanding otherwise it would already be an option no?

Because it's inevitable if you model the behaviour like the real life counterpart : pressing trim up release the trim brake on the stick, release the trim re-grips the brake on the stick at the place the stick was when you released.

This is the way ED wished to model it, true to IRL behaviour.

Since our joysticks cannot stay at the position we commanded but will always return to center, we're stuck with either one the 2 drawbacks you mention.

 

If you want to get rid of it, you need to model trim button behaviour differently from the real thing. I think you propose that when pushing trim up button, we actually indicate to the system that our expected trim position is the stick position when trim is pressed (unlike current behaviour where expected trim position is the position when trim is released), and that the trim button pressed neutralize input, which are given back when we release the trim?

That way we could press trim up when in target stick position, place the stick back to center without impact on attitude, and release trim button when our stick is back at center.

 

Is that so, or do you have something else in mind?

On 4/10/2022 at 2:25 AM, RuskyV said:

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Whisper

[RuskyV]

First of all thanks for the replies, however I don't want to quote everyone as it will get messy.

Here is what I'm trying to convey:

When pressing the Trim forward button (Central Position trimmer) why have the stick Freeze appon release before returning the stick to centre (or have it freeze at all)? As soon as you release the trim the simulation should assume that you are going to return the joystick to centre anyway as soon as you let go. The logic is where I'm getting hung up, not the flight model simulating the Trim per se. 

-The same question also stands for the FFB friendly option when trimming but don't let go of the stick immediately thus adding in addition deflection.

 

My Setup and how I use trim:

I'm using the RS R3 Lightning force sensing stick so letting go will return to centre really quickly so stick freezing is not often seen, however if I'm a little lazy getting off the pressure then it does (normal).

How I use the trim is to hold pressure in the direction on the stick and the then "tap" trim up and releasing pressure instantly on the stick, I'm not holding the trim up and then releasing. (this could be wrong on my part).

What I'm trying to drive home here is the decision behind the logical use of the trim function in DCS and not the simulated trim for each of the modules. When I mentioned penalties for using either option I was trying to explain (badly) the side effects that each of the trim options have. I can quite understand how confusion can seep in when learning to fly helicopters with the currant options available.

My Suggestion:

Would be to have a trim "option" that dose neither of the above, instead when hit the trim button you can release the stick pressure when ever you like or if you needed add in additional pressure and not have it freeze or then automatically add in more stick deflection.

Hope this is a little clearer 

[Floyd1212]

I think it's worth reiterating that there are options for doing more advanced trim functions using free software outside of DCS, sometimes even with the software that is provided by the manufacturer of your joystick/HOTAS setup.

I think if someone is willing to invest the time/energy into learning something as complicated as the Apache, they should be able to work their way through configuring the other solutions that are already out there.  There are tutorials and guides available to help.

It would be nice if ED built some of these options into DCS, but don't be afraid to take matters into your own hands! (no pun intended)

[Dangerzone]

9 hours ago, RuskyV said:

Here is what I'm trying to convey:

When pressing the Trim forward button (Central Position trimmer) why have the stick Freeze appon release before returning the stick to centre (or have it freeze at all)? As soon as you release the trim the simulation should assume that you are going to return the joystick to centre anyway as soon as you let go. The logic is where I'm getting hung up, not the flight model simulating the Trim per se. 

Thanks for clarifying. I'm still confused though - if the stick doesn't freeze - how do you want it to behave? 

Here's what currently happens...

For example, the stick is physically forward and right at +4,+2 respectively when the user hits the trim button. DCS records the 'offset' at +4 and +2 meaning whatever the stick input is from now on DCS will add +4 and +2 to the x and y coordinates for the final input. 

However there's a problem. The user still has the stick at +4 and +2 because the user can't move the stick instantly back to the center. Regardless of how quick the user is - there will be some delay in getting the stick back to center.

If DCS didn't freeze the inputs, the next calculation would be Stick physically at +4 and +2, but now add the offset coordinates of +4 and +2 - so the controls in DCS would jump instantly to +8 and +4 when the trimmer is pressed. As the user reduces the controls back to center the controls in DCS would end back at +4 and +2 when the stick is at the center, but there is that sudden lurch forward, and a quick change required to get it under control. 

This is an undesired effect. Most users don't want to see this jump effect.

So what DCS does is when you hit trim, it records +4 and +2 but now doesn't want to do any calculations until the stick is back in the center. Then the next input from the user that is executed will be another +4 and +2 - no sudden jumps in controls.  From there, it unfreezes the controls and you can move it to wherever you want. It allows for smooth transition.

 

Now, if you want to see what would happen without the freezing like you propose, you can already experience this (just in the opposite way) - as the trimmer reset button does the direct inverse of the trimmer button, but without the freezing.

So - to experience this:

1. Before taking off, move the stick backwards 2/3rds of the way (so the stick is at -7,0), and hit the trimmer button, and then move the stick back to center to unfreeze while still on the ground.
2. Now start to take off. You'll need to put in forward stick movement to get into a hover and airborne, so you'll probably be somewhere forward at +8 or +9 physically, but the input to DCS will be around +1 or +2.
3. Now hit trimmer RESET.  

Notice the sudden jump forward, the loss of control of the aircraft and the extreme movements required to get back undercontrol? That's what you would experience if we had no freezing when hitting the trimmer itself. 

I may still be completely misunderstanding you, so if I am - can you please give an example like I have about what steps you think should take place, and what the physical, and DCS inputs would be during those steps so we can better understand your proposal?

Cheers

DZ

Edited April 11, 2022 by Dangerzone