Force Trim

[Athlonic]

Hi, 

Same here, I love the Apache since age (since Jane's Apache Longbow)

But for now I am fighting with the controls rather than fighting with my targets, especially at low speed or when trying to hover, I am using a X55 -Rhino Hotas with its twist stick as rudder (oups I meant anti-torque) controls. I guess the current hardcore mode is best suited for use with actual pedals.

I think I just need some kind of "easy" mode regarding anti-torque (and maybe even cyclic) simulation here, no "special" trim tricks will help here indeed i am afraid.

Anyway I am really happy to get back in this beast, this with the Kiowa and the Blackhawk ... so many Longbow memories  

Keep up the good work ED, I am confident we will eventually have a less "wild" Apache with some sort of your developer's magic

[LooseSeal]

On 3/18/2022 at 2:18 PM, Japo32 said:

Also set the ALT hold..

RedKite has done a decent video on the topic here, if anyone wants a bit more clarification on things through the medium of RedKite's dulcet tones.

 

 

[petsild]

Very useful video  showing all the unpleasant features of the trim.

[Japo32]

Totally well explained there. And that is the reason we need a manufacturer that makes joysticks and pedals as the warthog, virpil or wingwin WITH force feedback inside.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Japo32

[Rongor]

1 hour ago, SkateZilla said:

there is no "trim reset" in any of the helo modules

It's pretty odd that you say that, because I have mapped trim reset in all of them. Didn't you notice these while beta testing?

Did I forget one?

Edited March 23, 2022 by Rongor

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, SkateZilla said:

there is no "trim reset" in any of the helo modules

 

What?

[Japo32]

well, those that don't want to use the trim reset.... don't use it. But allow the rest to live in peace.

By the way. I hope ED don't make the helicopter easier to fly because people are waining about the dificulty of fling it. Those people don't have to be worried about it as the rest of force trim functions wil come soon. I hope ED releases them soon for all of those that never touched an helicopter. I think all we want is as real as we can get. (and I know that trim reset is not a reality in most real helicopters... but Redkite video explains very well why we should have that trim Reset function in the Apache (as other helos)

Edited March 23, 2022 by Japo32

[SkateZilla]

12 minutes ago, Rongor said:

It's pretty odd that you say that, because I have mapped trim reset in all of them. Didn't you notice these while beta testing?

Did I forget one?

 

meant IRL

[petsild]

When the trim works as on UH-1, no reset button will be needed and everyone will be happy.

[nawarren]

2 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

meant IRL

I'm fairly sure in real life it's much easier to know where your Cyclic is at. Sitting in your pyjamas in front of a monitor with a desktop joystick however, maybe not so much. Whilst I'm all for realism, in this specific case I think a joystick trim reset option would be a great addition. Those that don't want it can not use it. Just give people options. I have every helicopter in the sim and for me not having this option makes it much harder to fly the Apache smoothly. 

[Rongor]

50 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

meant IRL

well, we don't have a central position trimmer mode IRL either

[kdfw]

force trim release implementation is squirrely on the ah64.  the best trim implementation is the hype performance's h-145 for mfs.    

[Hiob]

It is a bit older, but is still relevant, even for the Apache.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Hiob

[Supmua]

Redkite released a nice video illustrating how it works, and how it can also become a problem without trim reset.

 

[Ben Sones]

5 hours ago, LooseSeal said:

RedKite has done a decent video on the topic here, if anyone wants a bit more clarification on things through the medium of RedKite's dulcet tones.

 

 

 

That video really sums it up well. No, a trim reset button is not realistic. But flying a helicopter with a spring-loaded, self-centering joystick is also not realistic, nor are the various trim modes that ED has come up with to allow people to fly helicopters with joysticks rather than cyclics. As Redkite demonstrates in that video, the unavoidable problem is that a real helicopter cyclic does not lose any of its range of motion when you trim it. If you need to pull full back on the cyclic, you can do that from any trimmed position. With a joystick using either of the joystick-friendly trim modes in this module, you cannot pull full back on the cyclic if you have it trimmed forward. You have to first trim it back to neutral, then pull full back. You also have no way to know where neutral is, short of looking down at your lap and trying to gauge the position of the virtual stick (not a great idea if you are struggling with controlling the helicopter) or calling up the control map. In a real helicopter, you can feel where the cyclic is positioned. In a virtual helicopter that you are flying with a flight stick, it would be nice to have a helper function. Like, say, a "reset trim" button. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Ben Sones

[Hammer1-1]

On 3/18/2022 at 9:18 AM, Japo32 said:

Incredible I still didn't see a single video of how to manage this... 

First I understand that in the real aircraft the cyclic is "stuck" in a position so when you press the Force Trim up, it allows you to move and once you release it it stucks in that position. The problem is that unless we have a force feedback one, the joystick will move so I set up the special options to be both pedals and cyclic in the central position compensation mode, instead of the INSTANT TRIM (that is more or less as the K50 is)

Once I set the central option all more or less is ok... BUT there are two functions that don't work, and I don't know how (maybe they are a bug).

The ATT HOLD and ALT hold. None of them works. I manage the helicopter to be more or less in a hover position and trim. Then I press the Left force trim to maintain the position.. but it just drift away (no wind). Also set the ALT hold.. but nothing.. it goes up or down, not moving the colective.

I have the  AH64D manual and here is what it says that once the hold is mainteined whe have to press the FTR for 3 seconds to hold the new situation....

First I don''t know where that FTR button is in the sim. It seems that maybe is the ForceTrim R/UP? but if I press it for 3 seconds.. the aircraft banks a lot and it "destroys" the hover that I managed to have manually.

But none of those submodes are engaged when applied. There are also position and velocity hold submodes that are not achieved. 

Those are ok? or still this mode is need to be developed?

Thanks!

 

 

There are a few videos out there that deal exclusively with this; ie RedKite just posted one today, while there are a few more out in the wild. But the short and sweet of it is to just put your joysticks in central trimmer mode, hold down your trim button and relocate your joystick until your satisfied...then and only then do you release the trim button. BUT....this module needs a trimmer reset. Its the most confusing part of this module thats frustrating me. This helicopter is by far one of the easiest modules Ive learned so far, and its on par with the Huey when it comes to stability...but that trim needs a reset button. Every other heli in DCS has one.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[rcjonessnp175]

Lol i cant wait for people to start doing back flips when they press the reset trimmer button in the future.  Used it once in ka50 many years ago and nope never again

[agamemnon_b5]

7 minutes ago, rcjonessnp175 said:

Lol i cant wait for people to start doing back flips when they press the reset trimmer button in the future.  Used it once in ka50 many years ago and nope never again

And just like you've used it before, so have the people that are asking for one.  So obviously they don't have that issue in other helos they fly.

[Hammer1-1]

Just now, rcjonessnp175 said:

Lol i cant wait for people to start doing back flips when they press the reset trimmer button in the future.  Used it once in ka50 many years ago and nope never again

The trim in the Apache seems way different than the Ka50. While theres no trim for the rudder in the Ka, trim also sets the rudder in the Apache and thats whats screwing a lot of us over. Also from what Ive noticed, the neutral position for the rotor mast doesnt shift aft nearly as much as it does in the Ka; ie wont fly backwards as much in neutral. Seems to be more nose heavy in the Apache.

[rcjonessnp175]

9 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

The trim in the Apache seems way different than the Ka50. While theres no trim for the rudder in the Ka, trim also sets the rudder in the Apache and thats whats screwing a lot of us over. Also from what Ive noticed, the neutral position for the rotor mast doesnt shift aft nearly as much as it does in the Ka; ie wont fly backwards as much in neutral. Seems to be more nose heavy in the Apache.

Ka50 has rudder/yaw trim and has option for rudder pedal trim in special options.  I think most folks just aren’t grasping the scas system in the Apache, as it seems like a more in depth system modeling wise and as Apache is early access I doubt it’s complete.  Reset trimmer option shouldn’t be a drama but I haven’t seen any reason for it in the stick time in Apache.  The SME’s have some cool posts talking about this stuff, and ya the early access manual is a bit lacking on the subject….

[dburne]

Well I am getting much better with using force trim now that I have spent several days focusing only on cold starts,  take offs, cruising around, and landings. Finally got to where I can get half decent landing from a hover. I would still though gladly use a trimmer reset function at times. Getting close to start learning some weapons and combat along with working with George, but still want to give it a little longer till I get even more comfortable with using force trims and especially landings. 

On and I ended up with using the central position trimmer option I think it is called for joysticks with springs. For both cyclic and pedals.

 

3 minutes ago, rcjonessnp175 said:

Ka50 has rudder/yaw trim and has option for rudder pedal trim in special options.  I think most folks just aren’t grasping the scas system in the Apache, as it seems like a more in depth system modeling wise and as Apache is early access I doubt it’s complete.  Reset trimmer option shouldn’t be a drama but I haven’t seen any reason for it in the stick time in Apache.  The SME’s have some cool posts talking about this stuff, and ya the early access manual is a bit lacking on the subject….

What is this "The SME's" I see folks referencing? Probably dumb question on my part.

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by dburne

[rcjonessnp175]

22 minutes ago, dburne said:

Well I am getting much better with using force trim now that I have spent several days focusing only on cold starts,  take offs, cruising around, and landings. Finally got to where I can get half decent landing from a hover. I would still though gladly use a trimmer reset function at times. Getting close to start learning some weapons and combat along with working with George, but still want to give it a little longer till I get even more comfortable with using force trims and especially landings. 

On and I ended up with using the central position trimmer option I think it is called for joysticks with springs. For both cyclic and pedals.

 

What is this "The SME's" I see folks referencing? Probably dumb question on my part.

 

 

another thread Brad and Raptor9 where talking about the SCAS system have to find it

The heading hold thread and the commentary from Brad and Raptor9 did a good bit of getting my brain on track with the Apache system 

Edited March 24, 2022 by rcjonessnp175

[launchpad72]

When setting the force trim I noticed that when set the controls wont move until you release them. Agree when using the trim I crash almost 90% of the time.

[rayrayblues]

1 hour ago, launchpad72 said:

When setting the force trim I noticed that when set the controls wont move until you release them. Agree when using the trim I crash almost 90% of the time.

You can try using the "Instant Trim" setting, but it takes a little getting used to.

[shrimpy_dikdik]

I've asked this before but no one answered but what is the expected outcome of a trim reset? What state does it reset to? 

Scenario: your spinning around with your nose down and will likely crash soon. You hit this reset trim button. Then what? I would assume it would put the trim as if no forces are acting on the aircraft, as in before take off. But that won't help. You'll possibly spin violently either the other way or even increase you existing spin and shoot up towards the sky. You'll go from one unfortunate situation to another, possibly worse.

I think some of you are expecting an auto trim button, press it and everything magically rights its self. The existing force trim can work like that, you just need to use your flying skills a little, press and release and recentre the controls (spring centering stick and rudders). It's a very simple and effective system for what I use (TM tca stick and logitech pedals).