waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Tiger-II]

If the RADAR code did deliberately modify functionality after a certain date, then this is indeed a "time bomb".

Let's break it down very simply:

Time: it is deliberately programmed to do something on or after a certain time

Bomb: the behavior is deliberate by the software dev and unexpected on the part of the user.

There is no other way to describe the existence of such a feature as anything but malicious. There is no other reasonable explanation for its existence.

I don't care if you have a different definition - this is literally the meaning.

Expiration dates on software are not malicious, and are often published (Windows) or expected (beta testers for companies will be aware of and/or should know such mechanisms could exist in beta software). Trial software does not include "time bombs" as it states on the tin when it expires.

Edited June 23, 2024 by Tiger-II

[Romandv]

15 hours ago, Horns said:

Forgive me for visiting the sins of the parent on the kids in this analogy...

The M2K IMO was a pretty basic module until the AdA got involved, years after it was supposedly out of EA. After the dearth of updates earlier in the Harrier's life, that supposedly left EA in 2020 - although I will give Razbam some credit for honesty, as their official Discord's FAQ on the Harrier acknowledges that it still lacks features and concedes that resources are not currently available to complete it, despite the time that's passed since it hit release. It's really sad to see all of that appear to come back around, this time amplified to a complete suspension of support for the F-15E. I hope the current suspension proves temporary and Razbam finish the F-15E at least (I suspect other Harrier folks like me are resigned to it staying as it is), but I think this should probably be Razbam's last module for DCS, and I personally doubt they would be able to sell another after this anyway - although people do have short memories.

Let's hope the development of the SA map doesn't end up running into similar problems, although if that has different devs, that might be a solid reason for hope.

 

That's a very accurate statement. If it ends today, most people will forget tomorrow. New users are more likely to be unaware of the problems at all. As for the A8VB, I would be fine if it just worked, no hope for improvements, no bets on the F15E - there seems to be no one to deal with it anymore and the ED returns are not encouraging. I wouldn't worry about SA, I'm pretty sure there won't be any problems, otherwise there would have been by now. I recently bought Orbx Kola from the same developers and I have no worries.

There was a thread on hoggit yesterday about HB not getting paid earlier, as well as RB. Where is HB now and where is RB... That's what understanding of doing business is all about. 

 

[Blackeye]

34 minutes ago, Romandv said:

There was a thread on hoggit yesterday about HB not getting paid earlier, as well as RB. Where is HB now and where is RB... That's what understanding of doing business is all about. 

Might have to do with the fact that HB has their own store and had at least some money rolling in. A business can only survive on "understanding" for so long - at some point they need to be paid to keep going.

[SkateZilla]

8 hours ago, Tiger-II said:

If the RADAR code did deliberately modify functionality after a certain date, then this is indeed a "time bomb".

Let's break it down very simply:

Time: it is deliberately programmed to do something on or after a certain time

Bomb: the behavior is deliberate by the software dev and unexpected on the part of the user.

There is no other way to describe the existence of such a feature as anything but malicious. There is no other reasonable explanation for its existence.

I don't care if you have a different definition - this is literally the meaning.

Expiration dates on software are not malicious, and are often published (Windows) or expected (beta testers for companies will be aware of and/or should know such mechanisms could exist in beta software). Trial software does not include "time bombs" as it states on the tin when it expires.

 

Time Bombs Execute code at a specific value for date/time. This is not a TB.

The Radar framework isn't executing any code to disable the radar, all radar modes are simply not processed, A2A, A2G, RALT, Etc etc.

[Beirut]

9 hours ago, scommander2 said:

Yes, I am also steam user and I see lots of complains about F-15E mod in the user review, especially asking for their refunds (may not work I guess).  I think that it is too far to tell now or jump into the conclusion. 

 

I'm pretty sure we Steam users will (continue to) be told to contact Steam about a refund. In other words, not a chance. If I wanted a refund, I'd be satisfied with ED giving me a partial refund on a store credit for my main-site install that I use for the free trials. But that would be about as convoluted as was the previous sentence. Never happen.   

 

But I don't want a refund, I want my F-15E and I'll wait and see what happens. Meanwhile, back in the excellent Harrier... while is lasts. 

[Tom Kazansky]

3 hours ago, Blackeye said:

Might have to do with the fact that HB has their own store and had at least some money rolling in. A business can only survive on "understanding" for so long - at some point they need to be paid to keep going.

 

Good idea from HB.

[lee1hy]

LOL  many RB defender talk like trash without fact 
RB defenders attack like kids whenever you say anything bad about RB.

If RZB honest, open the exact facts.

Edited June 23, 2024 by lee1hy

[KungFu]

5 hours ago, Romandv said:

There was a thread on hoggit yesterday about HB not getting paid earlier, as well as RB. Where is HB now and where is RB... That's what understanding of doing business is all about. 

 

ED needs to jump on this asap (not two weeks)  and explain because if one email leaked, there will be others.   This is just like politics, eventually the truth will come out.  It is better to hear it first from ED rather than leaked emails.  

There was a response from a HB employee in that thread, and they did not dispute the authenticity of the email 

[Tom Kazansky]

1 minute ago, KungFu said:

ED needs to jump on this asap (not two weeks)  and explain because if one email leaked, there will be others.   This is just like politics, eventually the truth will come out.  It is better to hear it first from ED rather than leaked emails.  

There was a response from a HB employee in that thread, and they did not dispute the authenticity of the email 

ED should inform the public about an issue that has been solved while and because it has not been made public?

[Oban]

18 minutes ago, KungFu said:

ED needs to jump on this asap (not two weeks)  and explain because if one email leaked, there will be others.   This is just like politics, eventually the truth will come out.  It is better to hear it first from ED rather than leaked emails.  

There was a response from a HB employee in that thread, and they did not dispute the authenticity of the email 

ED don't need to explain anything other than what's happening in this current situation.

It amazes me how many people here feel they're owed some sort of explanation into how a company they're not connected to conducts its business.

"The customer is always right" is a fallacy, and often not the case at all.

The very same people being vocal are without a doubt in the same category as those who scream at the same company for " take my money, release it already" and then when it's released, constantly whine about the product not matching their expectations.

Most people seem forget that the release of the F15E was already a shyt show between RB and ED, with accusations and finger pointing back then, and tempers flaring, oddly enough the same players are involved in the current bun fight.

[Mizzy]

18 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Well, supposedly the AV8B is feature complete....last I heard (and its been a while honestly), they were upgrading features on the harrier to later versions like the TPOD, and the training missions were still in development. Again its been a while and not sure if thats been remedied yet, but last time I tried a training mission with learning the litening pod most of the button pushes were wrong. Again, not sure if its complete yet, and correct me if I am wrong PLEASE...but I dont think these modules are completed.

Yes, that's why I said "classified" as feature complete and not in early access any longer. As I understand it, once a module is 'complete' and out of early access, ED maintain the module in that they continue to fix any problems created by updating the Platform. The modules stay the same with no updates or new features once out of EA, it is not the 3rd Party's responsibility to fix what ED have broke in DCS, that's how I understand the situation. So the comment of modules slowly imploding is not accurate at all, if that was the case, the Mig 21 would be unusable and as we all know it's fully functional and has been for 10 years. This equals a daily cost of 0.01 pence, considering it costs me the full price of the module buying my weekend wine, I think the cost of modules over the years is negligible to say the least. 

When a module comes out of Early Access, if it's 'complete' is in the eye of the beholder. Greetings

Mizzy 

[maxTRX]

14 hours ago, beacon said:

Sometimes the protocoll is not that clear for others or even they know about. Maybe tell them how the protocol is . By that they will know excactly what to do. I know this muyself , in my job we tons of protocols and even i dont know them all in my head

It's the simplest protocol in the world that existed for eons, both for corporations and governments...

Edited June 23, 2024 by oldcrusty
shpelling :/

[KungFu]

31 minutes ago, Tom Kazansky said:

ED should inform the public about an issue that has been solved while and because it has not been made public?

If it ties to the current narrative being put out there, then yes they should.  Especially since the trust is dissolving between ED, Module makers, and customers.  ED has to restore the trust.

 

7 minutes ago, Oban said:

ED don't need to explain anything other than what's happening in this current situation.

It amazes me how many people here feel they're owed some sort of explanation into how a company they're not connected to conducts its business.

"The customer is always right" is a fallacy, and often not the case at all.

The very same people being vocal are without a doubt in the same category as those who scream at the same company for " take my money, release it already" and then when it's released, constantly whine about the product not matching their expectations.

Most people seem forget that the release of the F15E was already a shyt show between RB and ED, with accusations and finger pointing back then, and tempers flaring, oddly enough the same players are involved in the current bun fight.

Again If it ties to the current narrative being put out there, then yes they should.  Like I said, if one email leaked there will be others, it's best if ED gets ahead of it

I'm not demanding anything from ED, only offering "advise" because the trust is in fact dissolving fast.

 

[Mizzy]

16 hours ago, Blackeye said:

I'm afraid that's not entirely correct. While ED can work around some issues with unmaintained modules, eventually they'll have to decide between improving DCS or keep supporting the old modules. Without access to the source code there is only so much you can do with reasonable effort. Nineline has said that they don't have the source and won't be able to support those modules long term, so "slowly imploding" isn't a bad description for this situation.

Who mentioned Source Code ! It wasn't me. Read what I actually said.

On 6/22/2024 at 8:55 AM, SkateZilla said:

Pretty sure ED said old completed modules would be maintained in the state they were in, nothing new added etc.

That's what I am trying to say but not so succinctly !

Mizzy

Edited June 23, 2024 by Mizzy

[Oban]

15 minutes ago, KungFu said:

If it ties to the current narrative being put out there, then yes they should.  Especially since the trust is dissolving between ED, Module makers, and customers.  ED has to restore the trust.

 

Again If it ties to the current narrative being put out there, then yes they should.  Like I said, if one email leaked there will be others, it's best if ED gets ahead of it

I'm not demanding anything from ED, only offering "advise" because the trust is in fact dissolving fast.

 

Airing "dirty laundry" in public rarely goes well, no matter how frustrated one party becomes, as it rarely ends well for those doing the airing.

The relationship between RB and ED IMHO has become untenable, it wasn't all cookies and cream to begin with especially with the F15E.

The current narrative is that there's claims and counter claims of which are both serious enough that has damaged the reputations of both parties here, and the consumers trust has been seriously eroded, minds have already been made up, nothing will change.

The fact that you're offering "advice" on legal matters of which you know nothing about, or the technical aspects of the T's and C's, simply compounds my point about the customer not always being right.

How many Boeing aircraft both civil, and military have crashed, causing fatalities, and yet despite public mistrust, they continue to operate, and generate sales on the global market today?

Nothing ED will say will appease the RB side of the house, and nothing RB will say will appease the ED side of the house.

Less said, soonest mended.

Edited June 23, 2024 by Oban

[Mizzy]

16 minutes ago, Oban said:

Airing "dirty laundry" in public rarely goes well, no matter how frustrated one party becomes, as it rarely ends well for those doing the airing.

The relationship between RB and ED IMHO has become untenable, it wasn't all cookies and cream to begin with especially with the F15E.

The current narrative is that there's claims and counter claims of which are both serious enough that has damaged the reputations of both parties here, and the consumers trust has been seriously eroded, minds have already been made up, nothing will change.

The fact that you're offering "advice" on legal matters of which you know nothing about, or the technical aspects of the T's and C's, simply compounds my point about the customer not always being right.

How many Boeing aircraft both civil, and military have crashed, causing fatalities, and yet despite public mistrust, they continue to operate, and generate sales on the global market today?

Nothing ED will say will appease the RB side of the house, and nothing RB will say will appease the ED side of the house.

Less said, soonest mended.

 

Like it

[Blackeye]

42 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

>>old completed modules would be maintained

That's what I am trying to say but not so succinctly !

The problem is that without the source code (and ideally people who know the code) "maintaining" these modules gets harder as time goes on.

Without the source you can't really modify aka "maintain" them in order to fit a newer engine (potential legal issues aside) but instead the engine needs to maintain full backwards compatibility and at some point that becomes too much of an investment.

And again NineLine has already stated that ED cannot support those modules long term.

 

 

[ruxtmp]

40 minutes ago, Blackeye said:

The problem is that without the source code (and ideally people who know the code) "maintaining" these modules gets harder as time goes on.

Without the source you can't really modify aka "maintain" them in order to fit a newer engine (potential legal issues aside) but instead the engine needs to maintain full backwards compatibility and at some point that becomes too much of an investment.

And again NineLine has already stated that ED cannot support those modules long term.

 

 

So basically 3rd party modules are a huge risk as long term support is not guaranteed and can break and be unusable with no hope of fixes. Good to know as this solidifies my thoughts of no more buying 3rd party items. Most of the items are unfinished even now after years of being released be it ED modules or 3rd party. Personally, I think ED is past the ability to finish modules as the scope of a full module cannot be redeemed financially at the current marketable price point, thus resulting in a early access ponzi scheme where new modules are needed to pay for development of old modules.

[Oban]

20 minutes ago, ruxtmp said:

So basically 3rd party modules are a huge risk as long term support is not guaranteed and can break and be unusable with no hope of fixes. Good to know as this solidifies my thoughts of no more buying 3rd party items. Most of the items are unfinished even now after years of being released be it ED modules or 3rd party. Personally, I think ED is past the ability to finish modules as the scope of a full module cannot be redeemed financially at the current marketable price point, thus resulting in a early access ponzi scheme where new modules are needed to pay for development of old modules.

I wouldn't entirely blame ED for this, as in updating and development, as there's plenty of other 3rd party DEV's who have not maintained their modules to OUR expectations. (Gazelle anyone)

The Consumer is also to blame, driving demands make roadmaps more difficult to maintain and achieve.  Every man and his dog knows that after a significant core update, stuff gets broken, which infuriates the customer even more, and the dog starts chasing its tale again.

ED could easily abondon future core updates, and concentrate on modules, and those various roadmaps, but the DCS customer wants the best for his machine, and pushes that rig to the max.
5 years ago you could run DCS VR on an Nvidea 1080, and those who had the top end rigs were happy as pigs in shyt as they got what they wanted.. the poor saps on 960's were left behind..

Now it's like you need at least a 4060 to run VR smoothly, and with the latest headsets there's more of a demand to push the core game to its capacity... customer demands and expectations... and again, the average DCS user with his 3060 struggling is getting left behind, are those on low end systems any less of a customer than someone who runs a Pimax Crystal on a 4090??

We all want the best for what our systems can handle, and that means there has to be a compromise that suits everyone. DCS updates have become less frequent, before with open beta, you'd maybe get 8-10 updates per annum, now it's perhaps going to be 4-6 updates, maybe a single core update annually would be a better option, leaving time for the development of other modules? Is this what customers would be happy with?

The issue with a sim as complex as DCS, coders all work on different parts, it's a team effort, I would imagine the technical core coders wouldn't be dealing with flight dynamics of say the Mig 29..

So if the focus on mainting all modules simulaneously then it's going to be a slower process, unless there's an increase to the size of the team responsible, and that will all come down to ED's business plan, their projected ROI's and sticking to their various roadmaps.

[Notso]

5 hours ago, lee1hy said:

LOL  many RB defender talk like trash without fact 
RB defenders attack like kids whenever you say anything bad about RB.

If RZB honest, open the exact facts.

 

Why isn't the same standard also applied to ED then?  They've accused RB of an IP breach.  By your standard, they should "open the exact facts" to prove it to all of us.  But they won't.

And for good reason.  Both parties have to work through the legal process and posting those sorts of "Facts" doesn't do anyone any good right now.  

Perhaps if it becomes obvious there is no resolution in sight and never will be - then one or both parties will lay out their evidence to make the case that they were telling the truth.  I'm ps RB is more than happy to do that if this all goes Tango Uniform.  But we're not there quite yet.

Edited June 23, 2024 by Notso

[Hammer1-1]

2 hours ago, ruxtmp said:

So basically 3rd party modules are a huge risk as long term support is not guaranteed and can break and be unusable with no hope of fixes. Good to know as this solidifies my thoughts of no more buying 3rd party items. Most of the items are unfinished even now after years of being released be it ED modules or 3rd party. Personally, I think ED is past the ability to finish modules as the scope of a full module cannot be redeemed financially at the current marketable price point, thus resulting in a early access ponzi scheme where new modules are needed to pay for development of old modules.

I wouldnt really say that. Think of it; how many games do you see with a lifespan over a decade that gets continuously updated throughout the years? The fact that some of these modules are falling apart means that there technically is a lifespan of sorts, and eventually they will either get updated in a new iteration or die. Unfortunately devs lose interest or employees too, and this simulator is a very niche environment. The majority of all the good engineers want to work for Lockheed, not Eagle Dynamics.

Edited June 23, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[Silver_Dragon]

11 hours ago, Romandv said:

There was a thread on hoggit yesterday about HB not getting paid earlier, as well as RB. Where is HB now and where is RB... That's what understanding of doing business is all about. 

 

I sincerely hope that Hoggit and others has lawyers, because posting an unauthorized corporate email from a Heatblur member on a public forum without the sender's permission can be considered a crime, and possibly a serious one. It would not be surprising if both HB and ED are talking to their respective lawyers, and the one who posted the information could be charged with violation of corporate rights.

Edited June 23, 2024 by Silver_Dragon

[Oban]

12 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

I sincerely hope that Hoggit has lawyers, because posting an unauthorized corporate email from a Heatblur member on a public forum without the sender's permission can be considered a crime, and possibly a serious one. It would not be surprising if both HB and ED are talking to their respective lawyers, and the one who posted the information could be charged with violation of corporate rights.

Yeah, but you know this forum is fuull of weekend qualified lawyers, and they know better than anyone else's legal teams !

[KungFu]

4 hours ago, Oban said:

The fact that you're offering "advice" on legal matters of which you know nothing about, or the technical aspects of the T's and C's, simply compounds my point about the customer not always being right.

How many Boeing aircraft both civil, and military have crashed, causing fatalities, and yet despite public mistrust, they continue to operate, and generate sales on the global market today?

Nothing ED will say will appease the RB side of the house, and nothing RB will say will appease the ED side of the house.

Less said, soonest mended.

 

Not giving legal advice, I'm giving advice from a customer's point of view.  Which is what I assume this thread was created for.  You know well and good that ED normally do not create threads like this .... ever.  Reading Reddit, Discord and other forums you can see the increased apprehension to buy anything related to DCS since the RAZBAM drama began

DCS is a niche market, it's survival depends on niche customer sales.  Hell you could say that DCS drives most of the combat sim hardware business, which is also niche.  If the trust is broken between ED and the niche consumers, DCS will either suffer or be no more.  You see because customers see the rift between one maybe two module makers and wonder to themselves will a purchase from a third module maker be wise because they wonder if they are getting paid or not.   Especially because ED said that the Hawk debacle will never happen again....and look where we are

Comparing Boeing to ED is a a pretty big and flawed stretch.   Do we have really have a choice flying commercially on what plane manufacturer we fly on?  Do we have a choice on which plane the military purchases?  Do we as consumers have the means to buy a Boeing 737 or Airbus 350?  We do have a choice when purchasing a module on DCS.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2024 by KungFu

[jojyrocks]

18 hours ago, scommander2 said:

Yes, I am also steam user and I see lots of complains about F-15E mod in the user review, especially asking for their refunds (may not work I guess).  I think that it is too far to tell now or jump into the conclusion. 

 

Well, it is just depressing to start DCS and I see my Antivirus catches AV8B as an infected file. Now to play DCS, I have to go about roundabout methods for example, like disabling the Antivirus or creating an exception to the firewall, but I see that it is already done. This should not be even happening. Then I see the F-15, with the radar bug...

 

I have yet to test out Mirage and Mig 19.

 

I guess, we got no choice but to patiently wait.