The Dynamic Campaign... WHEN?!?!?

[Gierasimov]

On 10/22/2019 at 6:27 AM, 504_Anzac said:

As a mission designer that have been working with EDs different products since the flanker days, i'm a bit worried about if ED is aware of complete rework of AI that will have to be done in order to make a dynamic campaign working. I spends more time in the mission editor then in the cockpit, and part of that time is spent previewing AI behaviour in missions over and over again until you can get the behaviour you want in the mission. I feel that the AI is a joke, a bad bad joke. Everything you build has to be micromanaged to a level that you can not call the AI an AI anymore. And the parts where the AI actually has a bit of independent thinking, you often need to turn it off, or use community made scrips to micro manage it, like MOOSE, to get a behaviour that is not ridiculous. Even with all my skill and all the different tools used you still have AI that more often kills itself by not being able to for example manage fuel consumption and crashing due to running out of fuel, or not knowing when to pull up when getting in a dogfight or evading a missile, then to being hit by enemy fire. And don't even get me started on the ground AI... It is not even an AI, it is literally a way of moving targets around, and even that does not work. A common problem in my squadrons recent manually edited online dynamic campaign is that ground units just stop following orders, and get stuck with no way of making them move, at all. I really hope that ED realises that in order to make a dynamic campaign that will not just cause people to be disappointed and feel cheated they will have to totally rework the way the AI behaves or this will be money wasted. At least if it is to be a truly dynamic campaign where what you do actually affect the outcome of things, and not just a mission generator running with the ability to save in between missions. Because at this point the best way to win against the AI is just let them fly around killing themselves until they run out of air-frames. And wait for the ground AI to get stuck on a trees or buildings or just get bugged out so that the ground offensive is won.

4 years, 11 months and 23 days later all points above are still valid. I am sure ED is aware and working hard to bring the state of the art ground, sea and air combat AI available for  commercial entertainment product. It is resource consuming huge undertaking and will make DCS great! 

[Lionel Mandrake]

15 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Testing is in progress, but this is a huge project and will take time. 

thank you 

That's great but completely side steps the "certainly not 5 years" issue and the total loss of faith the community has in ED. 

Edited October 15, 2024 by Lionel Mandrake

[Gierasimov]

15 minutes ago, Lionel Mandrake said:

That's great but completely side steps the "certainly not 5 years" issue and the total loss of faith the community has in ED. 

 

 

Quote

certainly not 5 years

Sure not 5, at least 7 if not 10.

What community are you talking about?

This one?

Edited October 15, 2024 by Gierasimov

[BIGNEWY]

I am sorry you feel it is taking to long, I understand the frustration, but that wont make it happen any quicker, as mentioned it is a huge project and a complex one, we will all have to continue to wait. 

thank you 

[Zebra1-1]

On 10/15/2024 at 3:36 PM, Lionel Mandrake said:

That's great but completely side steps the "certainly not 5 years" issue and the total loss of faith the community has in ED. 

 

If you are that impatient, you had plenty of time to learn coding and help with the development. Sounds like you must have some understanding if you know how long it should or should not take. 

[MAXsenna]

46 minutes ago, Zebra1-1 said:

If you are that impatient, you had plenty of time to learn coding and help with the development. Sounds like you must have some understanding if you know how long it should or should not take. 

There's still time!  

[cfrag]

7 hours ago, Zebra1-1 said:

Sounds like you must have some understanding if you know how long it should or should not take. 

Well, as someone who does have some understanding in this area I can tell you that any software development that takes longer than 18-24 month in the entertainment arena has a 99% chance of failure - simply because the rate of change is so great that whatever was implemented is now based on outdated specs and concepts, so whatever ED are developing, let's hope that they discard anything that's been longer than 2 years in the making. A cursory glance at DCS's 'new' cargo/warehouse architecture/API IMHO demonstrates vividly what happens if you don't, and should serve as a warning to us all. 

A dynamic Campaign may or may not arrive some day. Let's hope for the best, and reserve judgement for the day if/when it arrives.

Edited October 30, 2024 by cfrag

[Kilo Oscar]

Quote from Aug 8, 2020 newsletter:
"The DCS World Dynamic Campaign Engine combines a Real-Time Strategy (RTS) engine with military forces and economics layers (production, logistics, use and transfer of resources) that pitch two opposing sides aided by advanced strategic and tactical AI.

We have now completed the core RTS logic and have connected it to DCS World. We are currently finalising the basics of the in-game economic models. We will be working on the combat tasking logic and certain win-win situations in the near future. The last stage will be the Client - Server architecture needed to support large campaigns with on-going online sessions.

We are certain that you will have many detailed questions and look forward to revealing more information on this module as and when we are in position to demonstrate some of the features live."

And Jan 9, 2021:
"This massive task has been underway for over two years, and the progress has been exciting. The campaign is built around a Real-Time Strategy (RTS) foundation that factors resources, zones of control, logistics, available forces, and a strategic decision-making system. While we believe internal testing will continue in the 1st quarter of 2021, it is too early to estimate a release date. However, external Beta testing is planned hopefully in Q2/Q3 2021."

 

Well it's Q4 2024 and all I hear are crickets chirping . Has it been abandoned? Can we get an honest answer?

[SharpeXB]

If you’ve heard the expression “Perfect is the enemy of good enough” I think that may entirely be the case here. This has been built up in the minds of the players to such a degree I fear they’ll never feel it’s good enough. I’d settle for a good enough DC now rather than a perfect one in five more years.

[Shimmergloom667]

2 hours ago, Kilo Oscar said:

Quote from Aug 8, 2020 newsletter:
"The DCS World Dynamic Campaign Engine combines a Real-Time Strategy (RTS) engine with military forces and economics layers (production, logistics, use and transfer of resources) that pitch two opposing sides aided by advanced strategic and tactical AI.

We have now completed the core RTS logic and have connected it to DCS World. We are currently finalising the basics of the in-game economic models. We will be working on the combat tasking logic and certain win-win situations in the near future. The last stage will be the Client - Server architecture needed to support large campaigns with on-going online sessions.

We are certain that you will have many detailed questions and look forward to revealing more information on this module as and when we are in position to demonstrate some of the features live."

And Jan 9, 2021:
"This massive task has been underway for over two years, and the progress has been exciting. The campaign is built around a Real-Time Strategy (RTS) foundation that factors resources, zones of control, logistics, available forces, and a strategic decision-making system. While we believe internal testing will continue in the 1st quarter of 2021, it is too early to estimate a release date. However, external Beta testing is planned hopefully in Q2/Q3 2021."

 

Well it's Q4 2024 and all I hear are crickets chirping . Has it been abandoned? Can we get an honest answer?

It has not been abandoned and various small updates about it can be found in the newsletters since 08/2020.

[Hotdognz]

1 hour ago, Shimmergloom667 said:

It has not been abandoned and various small updates about it can be found in the newsletters since 08/2020.

which are in the OPs original post, feels like nothings happening with it and we are just over at 4 in

[Shimmergloom667]

34 minutes ago, Hotdognz said:

which are in the OPs original post, feels like nothings happening with it and we are just over at 4 in

There have been more than these, the latest is from July of this year, unless I am sorely mistaken. https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2024-07-26/

This is DCS, everything takes long because everything is pretty complex. How is that news?

Edited November 13, 2024 by Shimmergloom667

[Weasel]

The DC is a massive task and requires a lot of time and developement. As already mentioned in the posts above, it has not been abandoned. Patience is the key word 

[MAXsenna]

What's another year?  

 

 

 

 

It took those other guys five years to concoct together the Gold Standard and Holy Grail.

I'm positive ED is adament on raising the bar. They know they will be judged by that other one. So there you have it. Will we ever see it? Only Heaven knows.

 

Edited November 13, 2024 by MAXsenna

[ebabil]

[BIGNEWY]

9 hours ago, Kilo Oscar said:

Well it's Q4 2024 and all I hear are crickets chirping . Has it been abandoned? Can we get an honest answer?

As mentioned many times the work is in progress and going well, we have shared some progress in a newsletter already and when we are ready to share more we will. 

thank you 

 

- Threads merged

[falcon_120]

I was really thrilled by the DC, until i realized that a DC with current AI, and current comms would be a let down in many respects. In fact a realized that community provided DCC or retribution DC are already quite good already.

Now I’m looking forward to any improvement on those areas (AI and comms)?with more interest than anything .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BIGNEWY]

47 minutes ago, falcon_120 said:

I was really thrilled by the DC, until i realized that a DC with current AI, and current comms would be a let down in many respects. In fact a realized that community provided DCC or retribution DC are already quite good already.

Now I’m looking forward to any improvement on those areas (AI and comms)?with more interest than anything .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lots of work has been done on the AI and a lot more is being done for the Dynamic campaign. Keep an eye on our change logs for core and AI changes. 

thank you 

[lee1hy]

If you try multiplayer PVE, you will see that there are many problems. In my opinion, dynamic campaign needs to fix basic fundamentals such as ATC, AI behavir, ground units , SAM, and squadron commands.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Seems to me that all our requests to fix the core and AI and bugs are summed up and realised in the development of a good workable DC. That is a monumental task. In 5-10 years maybe. I'd be surprised if any earlier.   

[Dangerzone]

On 11/14/2024 at 6:14 PM, falcon_120 said:

I was really thrilled by the DC, until i realized that a DC with current AI, and current comms would be a let down in many respects. In fact a realized that community provided DCC or retribution DC are already quite good already.

Now I’m looking forward to any improvement on those areas (AI and comms)?with more interest than anything .

The best experience I've had on DCS have been with real (people controlled) ATC, iand with real people controlling ground units using Combined Arms. An absolute hoot. Immersion to a new level. 

Sadly, the effort involved in getting that setup is no small feat (unless you fluke having the right guys on all at the same time one night casually) - but it is fantastic. Honestly - if that's what ED are trying to replicate (I don't think it is, but if it is) - then no wonder it would be taking so long to accomplish. It really spices up things to a whole new level. 

[MVS-Viper]

Any ETA on the Dynamic Campaign?

[cfrag]

19 hours ago, MVS-Viper said:

Any ETA on the Dynamic Campaign?

When the sun rises in the West and sets in the East. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. 

[Dangerzone]

21 hours ago, MVS-Viper said:

Any ETA on the Dynamic Campaign?

You won't get an ETA. You'll get an announcement when it's pending release, and that's it. 

ED already made a mistake by saying "Not 5 years" 5 years ago, and I think they're learning from their mistakes not to put time frames or expectations on anything anymore - so don't ever expect to see an ETA, just an announcement when it is pending. 

 

[MVS-Viper]

5 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

You won't get an ETA. You'll get an announcement when it's pending release, and that's it. 

ED already made a mistake by saying "Not 5 years" 5 years ago, and I think they're learning from their mistakes not to put time frames or expectations on anything anymore - so don't ever expect to see an ETA, just an announcement when it is pending. 

 

Sounds good.  Thanks