Why is the Viper getting TWS before the Hornet?

[Terrorban]

I would rather they implement the ground radar first and possibly complete the TPOD functions as well.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Why is the Viper getting TWS before the Hornet?

 

Wow a ‘beautiful mess’ indeed. So I went to buy the more complete F-14. Will keep me busy till the dust settles. I have the 18 and 16. But I’m pretty sure I’ll stay away from EAs from now given what’s happened. I think the next plane I’ll get is the almost full featured JF-17. Deka seems eager to listen and please fans. But it’ll be a dilemma with the F-15E if it’s planned.

Edited October 20, 2019 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[sk000tch]

I think you hit the nail in the head here, although I would go further.

 

At this point this complaining about TWS is not rational anymore....

 

No kidding... I kinda get the sense of fairness in a its rude when people cut in line sort of way... but never buying an ED or EA product again? I'm no ED apologist, but this whole thread bears a striking resemblance to my kids pitching a fit when one gets ice cream and the other doesn't.

 

I love the viper but as fun as it is, the 68(v)5 is no match for the 73. Its small, slower processing, less max azimuth, maybe 65% of the detection range of the 73. Its can't produce SAR images, and while the combined and situational awareness modes are very cool and fit well with the f-16, its certainly not what makes the f-16 great. Apples to apples, the TWS volume is much smaller and thus harder to employ against multiple targets.

 

From a development perspective (and I say this as someone who is not a developer, basically making this up), it TWS is more simple in the viper than the Hornet. There's no MSI integration, its simplified scan bias w/ 25 degree azimuth compared to three independent modes on the hornet, some of which utilize ranked track file data to keep highest threat bandits in the scan volume. Speaking of which, whereas the viper requires you bug a target, the 18 has three acquisition modes, including cycling highest ranked threats, allowing you to quickly step, employ, step, employ, etc. The 73 is quite good at target discrimination in tight groups, and has a dedicated RAID function the 16 lacks. Trackfile ranking has to be in place before TWS, itself a semi-complex logic based on whether a L&S exists, targets with MRMs, closure rate and range, and a few others. Its been WIP for some time now, and again, is a prerequisite to TWS. The hornet also gets a C-scope projection in addition to B-scope (Az/El), though not this is a prerequisite to TWS.

 

Continuing the theme of making up things I have no facts or citations to support, I suspect that we are currently limited by game engine in the ability to model some capabilities of the AG radar (and other things for that matter, like realistic targeting pods, or lasers without finite ranges). Producing a SAR image of map coords 100nm away, resolving object size at BVR distances, may not be possible, or may not be possible to do well, until some other work is completed. So while you might prefer a different development schedule, there very likely might be factors involved in the decision making that we are unaware of. Fortunately half the company is working on non-module related tasks, so maybe that Q1 2020 estimate won't slip (that far). Even then, things have a way of working themselves out. There are a lot of shared features still in the pipeline, seems likely that in some of these cases the Hornet will be first.

[Krippz]

Why can't everyone just be patient and not try to burn the house down every time something happens that their upset about?

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful but some of the outrage is very juvenile. There's loads of other features to be proud about and the feature that you want will come when it's ready, just wish the devs the best and carry on. At the end of the day this is the only combat flight sim that's on the market, cherish what you have....

[Darcwaynard]

Why can't everyone just be patient and not try to burn the house down every time something happens that their upset about?

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful but some of the outrage is very juvenile. There's loads of other features to be proud about and the feature that you want will come when it's ready, just wish the devs the best and carry on. At the end of the day this is the only combat flight sim that's on the market, cherish what you have....

+1

 

Sent from my SM-A530W using Tapatalk

[Alphamale]

This is why I am not buying the F16 for a few years. I broke my general rule of not buying anything in early access(This isn't specific to DCS just games in general) . But I bought the F-18 to support ED because I like DCS so much..... But I got to say I got very angry when I saw the Viper reveal.... here I am sitting here with an 80 dollar plane that is developing at a snails pace. I have spent over 400 dollars on DCS( I don't buy the modules on sale purposefully) But if this is going to be the way of it. Releasing things half finished before finishing the things you already have then I am going to have to start sitting on my money.

 

Agreed...over and over...really it's sad and indicative of the organization

[Alphamale]

Honestly ED should stop doing early access at all. The community just can't handle it. Give out the stable version only and only fully released modules.

Maybe beta versions, but only for people who apply for it and get checked. With the option to kick them out of the beta program, when they don't support the product.

 

I agree with this. Yeah, I don't expect the so-called "finished version" to be just that. There will be tweaks and bug squashing. But I don't expect EA to be a bucket-list item for a particular module. If you can't get it out 90% finished within a year, forget it. Don't hype it and promise anything. Offer it to your most dedicated. I'm sure they'll swallow it for ya. But do the advertising for the "all intents purposes finished" module

[MasterZelgadis]

I agree with this. Yeah, I don't expect the so-called "finished version" to be just that. There will be tweaks and bug squashing. But I don't expect EA to be a bucket-list item for a particular module. If you can't get it out 90% finished within a year, forget it. Don't hype it and promise anything. Offer it to your most dedicated. I'm sure they'll swallow it for ya. But do the advertising for the "all intents purposes finished" module

 

That's absolutely not what I wanted to say with my posting..

[Appleonastick]

I agree with this. Yeah, I don't expect the so-called "finished version" to be just that. There will be tweaks and bug squashing. But I don't expect EA to be a bucket-list item for a particular module. If you can't get it out 90% finished within a year, forget it. Don't hype it and promise anything. Offer it to your most dedicated. I'm sure they'll swallow it for ya. But do the advertising for the "all intents purposes finished" module

 

They funny thing is, that ED never promised anything.

When they say: We might, the criticasters read: We promise!

[Krippz]

 

As an example of what I mean: I'm pretty sure that noone expected the Viper to get TWS before the Hornet when they bought their EA Hornet.

 

Can you show me where you were promised to get a feature on the Horner before the Viper? Because I’ve looked and can’t find it.

[Appleonastick]

 

As an example of what I mean: I'm pretty sure that noone expected the Viper to get TWS before the Hornet when they bought their EA Hornet.

 

When people bought the Hornet EARLY ACCESS, the viper wasn't even known to be coming out.

And again, Early access.. They only promise is that it will be complete one day.

And that is complete in ED's opinion, not complete to what a user defines as complete.

How they complete it, at what order and at what speed, is totally up to ED.

You buy a early access module, not a piece of the company.

But it's really great to see all the big game company ceo's on here giving ED some advice how to better run their company.

[nessuno0505]

If everything is subject to change then nothing would protect us, the EA customer, from ED just deciding to stop development on an EA module and calling it a final version on its current state.

 

Honestly ED should stop doing early access at all. The community just can't handle it. Give out the stable version only and only fully released modules.

Maybe beta versions, but only for people who apply for it and get checked. With the option to kick them out of the beta program, when they don't support the product.

 

This is exactly what an early access is. ED said a lot of times that early access is not for everyone. The real problem here Is that the vast majority of the community plays early access and deals with It as If It was stable. It Is not. Considering this, a restricted early access with an invitation and a check could be a solution, in order to force people to play stable.

Edited October 20, 2019 by nessuno0505

[hanab]

. Considering this, a restricted early access with an invitation and a check could be a solution, in order to force people to play stable.

 

But like this, ED will never make money like CEO said. EA is necessary for the compagny, so they have to accept advantage (money) and disavantage (unhappy player)

[Silver_Dragon]

Considering this, a restricted early access with an invitation and a check could be a solution, in order to force people to play stable.

 

A resticted early access has now the Beta Testers. If you put Early access as "restrited" to a minority, you will making "a torment of shit" vs ED.

[Mainstay]

If they release TWS on the Falcon first thats fine. They said multiple times it benefits the Hornet also system wise.

[falcon_120]

No kidding... I kinda get the sense of fairness in a its rude when people cut in line sort of way... but never buying an ED or EA product again? I'm no ED apologist, but this whole thread bears a striking resemblance to my kids pitching a fit when one gets ice cream and the other doesn't.

 

I love the viper but as fun as it is, the 68(v)5 is no match for the 73. Its small, slower processing, less max azimuth, maybe 65% of the detection range of the 73. Its can't produce SAR images, and while the combined and situational awareness modes are very cool and fit well with the f-16, its certainly not what makes the f-16 great. Apples to apples, the TWS volume is much smaller and thus harder to employ against multiple targets.

 

From a development perspective (and I say this as someone who is not a developer, basically making this up), it TWS is more simple in the viper than the Hornet. There's no MSI integration, its simplified scan bias w/ 25 degree azimuth compared to three independent modes on the hornet, some of which utilize ranked track file data to keep highest threat bandits in the scan volume. Speaking of which, whereas the viper requires you bug a target, the 18 has three acquisition modes, including cycling highest ranked threats, allowing you to quickly step, employ, step, employ, etc. The 73 is quite good at target discrimination in tight groups, and has a dedicated RAID function the 16 lacks. Trackfile ranking has to be in place before TWS, itself a semi-complex logic based on whether a L&S exists, targets with MRMs, closure rate and range, and a few others. Its been WIP for some time now, and again, is a prerequisite to TWS. The hornet also gets a C-scope projection in addition to B-scope (Az/El), though not this is a prerequisite to TWS.

 

Continuing the theme of making up things I have no facts or citations to support, I suspect that we are currently limited by game engine in the ability to model some capabilities of the AG radar (and other things for that matter, like realistic targeting pods, or lasers without finite ranges). Producing a SAR image of map coords 100nm away, resolving object size at BVR distances, may not be possible, or may not be possible to do well, until some other work is completed. So while you might prefer a different development schedule, there very likely might be factors involved in the decision making that we are unaware of. Fortunately half the company is working on non-module related tasks, so maybe that Q1 2020 estimate won't slip (that far). Even then, things have a way of working themselves out. There are a lot of shared features still in the pipeline, seems likely that in some of these cases the Hornet will be first.

 

That's interesting. However right now the viper radar I would say it has the same detection range of the 73, or really really close to it. I can't say i've seen any difference at all. I hope ED tune all that to be as close to RL as possible. It would not make much sense that the viper ends with same detection range of a plane with a bigger antena diameter and higher average emission power. I guess its just WIP.

[nessuno0505]

Obviously a restricted early access is not feasible. The point of my post Is that if we had a more mature and aware community, the majority of people would play on stable branch, and the few people who choose the early access know what It means and contribute without questioning on management choices.

[Brigg]

Doesn't surprise me tbh, instead of getting the mw50 fixed in my Dora what do ED do, release another Fw. Realising stuff before fixing stuff you have already released is what is pushing a lot of people away from this sim.

[billeinstein]

Doesn't surprise me tbh, instead of getting the mw50 fixed in my Dora what do ED do, release another Fw. Realising stuff before fixing stuff you have already released is what is pushing a lot of people away from this sim.

 

If don't, pushing more.

[jeffham222]

No being honest is updating everyone when the change was made.

 

and everything is subject to change.

 

Which is why I suggested maybe "fudging the numbers"/giving yourselves some "wiggle room" by giving us a time longer than what it will actually take, within reason. Gives the customer a realistic set of expectations and butthurt will be minimal.

 

***Edit***

 

While I can't name when one feature is or was supposed to be ready by a specific date, the perception is certain things should be ready by a lot of the community. Perception is a real pain in the butt and something from the customer ED must manage to minimize the hate and discontent.

 

Me personally? As much as I'd like everything done right now, I'm still learning to fly the Hornet proficiently... So whether TWS or AG RDR comes next week or 6 months from now, won't really matter TOO much to me as I have a lot of other things to master before I move to the next thing. I suspect there are people in the community that have "mastered" each and every module they have and are waiting for the new stuff, but are they the majority or minority? Who knows? What definition of "mastering" should we use?

Edited October 20, 2019 by jeffham222
other thoughts

[USA_Recon]

I guess the biggest point is this is a unforced error. If you finished TWS for the Viper...don't say a word. Get it finished for the Hornet and release them both at the same time.

 

You have a lot of people that have been waiting for TWS above all things for a long time and to come right out and give the Viper a huge A2A edge right out the gate is not something that makes people happy. I'm sure no one would have an issue if they came out at the same time but this isn't something that is very palatable at all. I'm definitely someone that usually drinks the kool-aid 99% of the time. And I'm not one to come on here and say much of anything other than point out bugs. But this one hurts.

 

This is honestly ridiculous. Release things when they are done. ED explained why. If Viper gets TWS and two weeks later Hornet does, it's a win win.

 

What matters is the quality, if ED says doing Viper first will allow it to get done and done correctly, then it doesn't matter if it was first.on Hornet or Viper.

 

Tired of the whining, especially when a legitimate reason is given by ED, it's not some random decision

[Mouse_99]

This whole thing has been FUBAR'd and there is no clean way to get out of it, so I am just , I don't know, sick about the whole thing.

[Appleonastick]

This whole thing has been FUBAR'd and there is no clean way to get out of it, so I am just , I don't know, sick about the whole thing.

 

Really? Are you actually sick?

Like.. your daily life is less than it was before?

Are you having a mental breakdown because of a piece of software?

Wow...

[jeffham222]

Bruh, go bomb some targets or shoot some HARMs... or MAVs... I am sure there is SOMETHING you can work on to get proficient at...

[PhillMag]

But like this, ED will never make money like CEO said. EA is necessary for the compagny, so they have to accept advantage (money) and disavantage (unhappy player)

 

I agree and disagree with you at the same time. The only reason there are unhappy players, is because those players completely misunderstand what Early Access means. You in particular have been quite vocal on your displeasure regarding the Viper being released. Your everyday interaction within the Forum has added nothing, and has proven that you understand the reason for EA, without actually understanding what EA means.

 

While not aimed specifically at you, I will say this about the community in general: I am truly sick and tired of coming to the forum, or view a Youtube clip about some new feature of the Viper/Hornet, only to come across a wall of cancerous text toxicity about how they "spent $400 on modules", or how ED "broke promises". Jeez people, it's a game! And a bloody good one at that!

 

If you truly believe that TWS will make a substantial difference to your MP experience, in either the Viper or Hornet, then it basically means you are crap anyway. This ridiculous focus on TWS means you're problably one of those pilots that only get a kill by spamming 6 AMRAAMS at someone and hoping they react too late once the missiles go pitbul.

 

I'm going to give the Forum a break for a while, because I honestly can't take the negativity and sense of entitlement from little kids anymore.

 

@Bignewy and the rest of the ED Team, good luck with this community.