Case 3 Landings: Need some help

[AbuMuqawama]

So, I've been trying Case 3 landings and an issue that I have encountered is that I am generally terrible at them. I'm able to mostly line things up, but when I get within about a mile of the carrier I notice that I'm port of where I need to be for the landing. Another problem that I have is that when I get within a few miles I find that I'm chasing the indicator lines despite being lined up for the rest of the glide slope before that. Does anyone have any pointers to get me sorted out with these issues?

[Stearmandriver]

Entirely normal to end up left of course if you're not correcting for it. The carrier is moving, and because the landing area of the deck is angled, the runway is always moving to your right. You need to either establish the correct crab for this, or make continuous corrections to the right. 

Both needles get more sensitive as you get closer, so you've gotta be very gentle with your corrections as you get closer.  Couple degrees of heading, and very gentle power adjustments for glideslope. 

[flyingtom]

Try to do some Case 3 approach during day time with a nice weather beforehand, then at night and focus your training on working your needles. That way you will have a better understanding about what's going on.

[TimRobertsen]

Regarding chasing the needles.

For glideslope: once you intersect the GS, at about 3nm, if Im not mistaking, put the VV down towards 3,5 degree down on the HUD. With the carrier and wind within normal conditions (Im guess you're practacing at normal conditions:p : boat + wind at about 25-30 knots), the VV-position should look to be about center between the waterline/0 degree and the -5 degree line. If the GS-needle starts to move up or down, do small corrections. Changing the VV-position by 1-2 degree up or down (I know this isn't directly readable on the HUD, but its more to give an idea of how little change is needed).

Now, before you catch fully up with the GS-needle, start slowly moving the VV back to center-position (between the 0 degree-line and -5 degree-line) on the HUD, this ensures that you dont over-shoot the GS-line. If you wait to reposition the VV for on-GS when you intersect the needle, you'll just risk a lot of chasing

You'll have to forgive me if this is a obvious/redundant comment.

As for the line-up: You'll just have to "lead" the boat a little.

Small corrections is the key. Especially with the throttle. You'll see videos of folks on youtube throwing the throttle back and forth; it might feel cool, but its not neccessary (unless the wind/turbulence conditions are really troublesome).

Hope this helps a little  

Edited April 12, 2022 by TimRobertsen

[Habu_69]

I aim the VV a little high and right of the green light, guessing about where the island bridge would be, until I have a clear view of the flight deck. Regarding the needles and IFLOLS, the closer you approach, the more subtle your control corrections.

[Taz1004]

You need to fly the BRC with course distance of about 0.1-0.2 until about 3nm and then turn into the final bearing.

If you chase the ILS needle and the carrier light from your holding pattern, you'll end up chasing the carrier into the BRC by the time you land.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Taz1004

[Foka]

2 hours ago, Taz1004 said:

You need to fly the BRC with course distance of about 0.1-0.2 until about 3nm and then turn into the final bearing.

In Case III Recovery you don't use BRC. Only FB.

[Taz1004]

32 minutes ago, Foka said:

In Case III Recovery you don't use BRC. Only FB.

I do.  Just add 10' to FB.

People above said "make continuous corrections to the right.", "You'll just have to "lead" the boat a little."

I just said same thing.  Flying towards BRC is my way of making that same correction.

[Foka]

So it's "your way of flying", not Case III procedure.

[Taz1004]

1 minute ago, Foka said:

So it's "your way of flying", not Case III procedure.

Yes.  "My way of making correction"

Is aiming for island Case III procedure?

[Foka]

Flying FB is Case III procedure. Case III is for poor weather conditions and night. You don't see the island until you're close.

You should fly according to ICLS indications, then on the ball. If you're following ICLS indications, you will be on correct path.

[Taz1004]

4 hours ago, Foka said:

Flying FB is Case III procedure. Case III is for poor weather conditions and night. You don't see the island until you're close.

You should fly according to ICLS indications, then on the ball. If you're following ICLS indications, you will be on correct path.

No, flying marshall radial until 10nm is Case III procedure.  Not FB.  But "what is Case III procedure" is not the OP's question.  Why he ends up "port of where I need to be for the landing" if he follows Case III procedure was his question.  Even Wags in his video ends up left when just following ICLS.

Everyone suggested make compensation to the right.  Mine was same thing.  Especially on fast moving boat with high wind, I have to continue flying to the right which is pretty much the BRC in order to compensate.  But it's getting tiring repeating myself so bye.  /mute.

[Tholozor]

Stack is flown on the given radial, final leg is flown on FB. If you have the Supercarrier module, you can also use the LRLLS to help adjust your line-up (I like to use the mnemonic 'right on red').

[Lane]

I don't say it is the correct procedure, but i just set a CRS on HSI with the Tacan as waypoint with right final bearing -9° of the BRC.  Quite more easy get the approach right.

 

 

[AbuMuqawama]

Thanks for the replies guys, they have helped. I seem to be getting more of a hang for it.

[Zodiacc]

I dont know why people advise their informal "way of flying" but it is not how its done IRL or DCS.No one need BRC at all for a CASE III Recovery

For CASE III Recovery you only have FB not BRC so dont get confuse.You should adjust your final bearing exactly like marshall said.Do not add 10 degree, if FB is 030.Set your course 030.It doesnt matter carrier is moving or not.You already set your FB course to the TACAN which attachted to the boat, so you can always observe your position from HSI relative to the FB.Make sure you have proper CASE III Approach Chart in front of you it will be very helpful.You have your ICLS,HSI,IFLOLS and LLS you should benefit from all of them when needed.

 

 

[DeltaMike]

So, flying final bearing will kind of be like a cross wind landing, only without the wind. So I guess crabbing (pointing at the superstructure) may not work all that well, but a slip (right wing down, left rudder) should work the charm, no?

@Zodiacc just to be clear, I'd follow the stack radial down to 15mi, than reset my course to final heading? Or just ignore course and fly the needles from there?

[Razor18]

I don't think slipping would do anything good to the on speed AoA and the VV. Let alone the 3.5 degree glide slope to follow... Then rather slight crabbing. If you are left of centerline, then put the VV on the right edge of the island, then as you come back to centerline, try to put the VV to the middle or left edge of the island, or even try aiming at the Crotch.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Razor18

[norman99]

Wings level crab works best for me.

Remember, when in the grove, it’s all visual flying. Whilst the HUD is useful, don’t let it distract you from doing whatever you have to do to stay on centreline. In that regard, it’s like flying any other aircraft with a crosswind, look out the window and stay on centreline.

Also, try not to carry a deviation all the way to the ramp in an attempt to be ‘smooth’. A training pilot once told me, “F*** being smooth, just be accurate”. What he meant was, as soon as you see a deviation, make an early and deliberate correction, rather than allowing the deviation to grow whilst you slowly and smoothly attempt to fix it.

[Zodiacc]

On 4/19/2022 at 6:28 PM, DeltaMike said:

So, flying final bearing will kind of be like a cross wind landing, only without the wind. So I guess crabbing (pointing at the superstructure) may not work all that well, but a slip (right wing down, left rudder) should work the charm, no?

@Zodiacc just to be clear, I'd follow the stack radial down to 15mi, than reset my course to final heading? Or just ignore course and fly the needles from there?

Sorry for late answer @DeltaMike

First of all marshall will give you radial for holding stack.When you hit your push time on time (for example: 21:02 21nm 6000feet inbound course) you call commence and start descending then switch to the FB immediately.

I dont apply any rudder at all or intentionally RW down but if it works why not.

You shouldnt be slip that much because carrier is always moving towards to wind when operating case procedures.Therefore makesure you have headwind around 15-20 knot on runway. (if wind is about 7 knot carrier should be moving about 8-10 knot)

If you have mark-1 eyeball on carrier use LLS and try keep amber light.I think its your best bet with your problem.

 

[Bunny Clark]

On 4/19/2022 at 10:28 AM, DeltaMike said:

So, flying final bearing will kind of be like a cross wind landing, only without the wind.

It is actually just like a crosswind landing. Not only is the ship (hopefully) pointing into the wind, but the motion of the carrier relative to your plane is in essence creating a relative wind. A crab into that relative wind, the direction the carrier is moving, is exactly what you should do. If you imagine the carrier staying completely still and a wind blowing down BRC at the speed of the carrier + real wind speed, the result would be the same.

[Foka]

17 hours ago, Zodiacc said:

You shouldnt be slip that much because carrier is always moving towards to wind when operating case procedures.Therefore makesure you have headwind around 15-20 knot on runway. (if wind is about 7 knot carrier should be moving about 8-10 knot)

Actaually desired wind over deck is 25-30 kts.

[Guest]

In VR the visual distance is a problem. I think in RL you can switch much earlier from instrument landing to visual landing.

[Nealius]

On 4/24/2022 at 4:37 AM, Ingo Kognito said:

In VR the visual distance is a problem. I think in RL you can switch much earlier from instrument landing to visual landing.

I second this. I can't clearly fly the ball in VR until about 0.5~0.6nm, which is quite a bit closer than the "3/4 mile call the ball" call from Approach at 0.8~0.9nm. 

I suppose that's why the IFLOLS popup exists, but the majority of CASE III being at night, the IFLOLS popup's lack of brightness adjustment makes it blinding and messes with your virtual night vision in the VR headset.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Nealius

[pete_auau]

this  should make  it  even easier