is DCS a Ship Simulator and weapons systems Simulator only ?

[Hiob]

50 minutes ago, GOZR said:

LoL .. alas the lack of atmospheric physic makes all aircraft sterilized.. boring to fly

Ok...  Then good luck and farewell, I suppose? Because I won't bet on that changing anytime soon....

[Dragon1-1]

No other combat sim that I know of does those things (the other WWII sim is even worse about turbulence and the like), so it's either that, or employing weapons. DCS started out as a modern aircraft sim, so different things were prioritized. Flying is not the primary challenge when flying a modern jet, operating its systems and fighting in it is. Right now priority is graphics, the weather engine is seeing some work, but not as much as I'd like (particularly VR cloud flickering). Another priority is AI, also important in any kind of combat operation unless you go all-MP. I wouldn't expect massive changes until multicore and Vulkan are finished, since those likely tie up a lot of ED's resources right now.

[WipeUout]

1 hour ago, GOZR said:

aircraft sterilized.. boring to fly

I see that you miss flying a lot.  You are very lucky to have experienced this.  Not all of us have, DCS is the closest we will ever be.  You said we all want the best, you`re right, and we have the best, we have DCS!  It`s not perfect and under development forever, but it is getting better and better.

Save your money, buy yourself a real airplane and be happy again.  You need it.

Edited November 20, 2022 by WipeUout
Typo

[Mars Exulte]

On 11/19/2022 at 7:48 AM, Northstar98 said:

True, but supposedly is WIP - would be good to get some details of what we can expect.

Not sure if thermals will be a thing, but who knows.

There is.

See above.

Disagree, but yes, some higher fidelity and more fleshed out atmospheric physics would be nice.

In what way?

They still bounce around all over the place when making certain camera movements on my end, but hopefully they'll get there.

Well, so long as you only care about player aircraft fired weapons maybe, everything else is fairly low fidelity.

What? DCS is far and away from being any kind of ship simulator - if you think atmospheric physics are bad, I don't know what to tell you about ships - I mean they don't even have AI SFM levels of physics fidelity...

They supposedly have 50% of their team working on the core, though unfortunately it does seem that core stuff takes an absolute age to get through (and even then the most improvements seem to be in graphics).

 I think this is just a rando venting and not really to be taken seriously. @OP Some of the stuff you mentioned is a somewhat reasonable take, a lot of it is a bit ridiculous though, too, especially ''I know I'm right'' Yeah... if you have to pat yourself on the back, it's not as much a confirmation as you think.

 

And bye. These 'Dear John' letters when somebody leaves a video game are so much fun @@ Nobody cares, man. Their CS reps aren't going to chase you down the hall screaming ''NO, GOZR, COME BACK, WE MIIIIIIISSSSSS YOUUUU UWU''

Edited November 20, 2022 by Mars Exulte

[GOZR]

I forgot that arguing with only virtual pilots that always know better is a mute.. just take it and learn.  IL2 as a better flight and turbulence feeling .. that is a given period. To me a as flight simulator the flight comes first not the weapons..   I wont give up on DCS but listen to this ,, DCS is behind IL2 and FS2020 there is no arguments in flight and the FM performances are not in question here.. . just take it ..   So we all agree that for now DCS is a Weapons system "Simulator"  and for example IL2 and FS2020 enter in the Flight Simulator category and combat..  No leaving .. lower your ego..  LOL.. I am sorry to break your dream about DCS and I hope that it is just for a short time.... but if no one open their mouth nothing will be made to change that..  I repeat.. DCS atmospheric physics are the worse quite similar to War of Thunders and I am not joking. Ad the last thing I will say is  If you want to learn or play with weapons.. radars systems DCS is the best you can have on your PC right now.. there is no doubt.. and it is good and getting better ... now to fly... get into IL2.. no button to press just key biddings  but the flight feeling is far better and for the cruising and navigations flight FS2020..  we should all basically agree and ask for the next 2 weeks of update on DCS atmospheric and not necessary a rainbow....  But make no mistake I Iove DCS since Lockon but I love to have the flight on Il2 and FS2020 to fulfill the flight needs.. ( even if they have as well some issues)   It's great that we have Virtual pilots now and we are simmers as well so share the passion..  so lets push the Dev

I will try again IL2 Blitz I think it has the most complete effects of all..  VR is coming into it so I hope for good things for us all. But I see always guys here talking of Il2 and flying.. just remember that.. for now we are all on the same boat and many many of us have those 3 sims and switch depending the mood .. but next time when you fly IL2 think about it.. feel it. It is not about aircraft FM..

Edited November 20, 2022 by GOZR

[MadKreator]

My couple of  cent’s worth. I’m not a real pilot, never have been, always wanted to though, so I’m far from knowledgeable on atmospheric conditions and how they affect real aircraft ( aside from 20+ years of flying radio I controlled planes and helis which isn’t quite the same), but after the new update i was cruising around PG in a nice little windy/ stormy ish setting and really noticed the turbulence in the f-16, something I had never really “felt” before. Maybe all the stars just aligned with the weather settings but it was a nice feeling that the aircraft wasn’t just flying on rails so to speak. For the first time since I can remember playing dcs, landing was actually a bit more challenging. Not just the typical crosswind, that’s easy in dcs because the aircraft just flys in off kilter a bit, but its still mostly smooth,  but this time it was bouncing all over, forcing me to concentrate , use rudders and everything to bring it in. It was definitely a better experience! I’m sure the effects have been there for a long time but seem to never be really felt or that pronounced. Ive never really focused on those things in DCS but after that one flight, and reading this thread, I can 100% see where the OP is coming from! Having more realistic atmospheric effects would be a great step for the overall feeling. Maybe after Multithreading and Vulkan to distribute the load around.. Having realistic ground effect and rollers off the tops of mountains, updrafts, downdrafts, winds that aren’t a constant speed all the time and whatever else,  would be much preferred over rainbows and baked in atmospheric phenomena, to me at least.

Edited November 20, 2022 by MadKreator

[Mars Exulte]

Good evening everyone, I'm coming to you now with a live report interrupting your usual forum browsing. It appears a man playing a video game is shocked it is not completely true to real life and ''knows'' things. Amazing. Stay with us as we continue to report on this developing story later tonight. Back to you, Bob.

[TheFreshPrince]

Weather IRL is so complex, that you can't even model it with a super computer very well. So I'd lower my expectations on what can be done with a flight sim... All you might get at best is some kind of probability that the aircraft is being shaken around a bit. I don't think this will ever feel like real flying for any of you real pilots.

[Bananabrai]

1 hour ago, TheFreshPrince said:

Weather IRL is so complex, that you can't even model it with a super computer very well. So I'd lower my expectations on what can be done with a flight sim... All you might get at best is some kind of probability that the aircraft is being shaken around a bit. I don't think this will ever feel like real flying for any of you real pilots.

True. WX is pretty hard to simulated. And the DCS frame is pretty old. The better sims are getting, the more nuance details you will still feel missing from real flying. 

 

11 hours ago, GOZR said:

I forgot that arguing with only virtual pilots that always know better is a mute.. just take it and learn.  IL2 as a better flight and turbulence feeling .. that is a given period. To me a as flight simulator the flight comes first not the weapons..   I wont give up on DCS but listen to this ,, DCS is behind IL2 and FS2020 there is no arguments in flight and the FM performances are not in question here.. . just take it ..   So we all agree that for now DCS is a Weapons system "Simulator"  and for example IL2 and FS2020 enter in the Flight Simulator category and combat..  No leaving .. lower your ego..  LOL.. I am sorry to break your dream about DCS and I hope that it is just for a short time.... but if no one open their mouth nothing will be made to change that..  I repeat.. DCS atmospheric physics are the worse quite similar to War of Thunders and I am not joking. Ad the last thing I will say is  If you want to learn or play with weapons.. radars systems DCS is the best you can have on your PC right now.. there is no doubt.. and it is good and getting better ... now to fly... get into IL2.. no button to press just key biddings  but the flight feeling is far better and for the cruising and navigations flight FS2020..  we should all basically agree and ask for the next 2 weeks of update on DCS atmospheric and not necessary a rainbow....  But make no mistake I Iove DCS since Lockon but I love to have the flight on Il2 and FS2020 to fulfill the flight needs.. ( even if they have as well some issues)   It's great that we have Virtual pilots now and we are simmers as well so share the passion..  so lets push the Dev

I will try again IL2 Blitz I think it has the most complete effects of all..  VR is coming into it so I hope for good things for us all. But I see always guys here talking of Il2 and flying.. just remember that.. for now we are all on the same boat and many many of us have those 3 sims and switch depending the mood .. but next time when you fly IL2 think about it.. feel it. It is not about aircraft FM..

 

Get some support dude, I think you are not breaking anyone's dream of DCS but only your own.

Always like to read from people that never had the opportunity to fly IRL and describe their passion about the sim.
People who are dreaming of becoming a real pilot. And then real pilots like you come around and 'talk'.
Why was that again? Because nothing will change until you rant around? And now it will?
And of course it will be fixed faster now... because a 'real' pilot showed up...

Thanks for making other simmers really like us.

Back to you bob.

[Hiob]

12 hours ago, GOZR said:

I forgot that arguing with only virtual pilots that always know better is a mute.. just take it and learn. 

 

 

Geeze.... Sometimes I could kick myself for freely giving the benefit of doubt.

With every post you make, you disqualify yourself even more as reasonable dialogue partner.

[dburne]

2 hours ago, Hiob said:

Geeze.... Sometimes I could kick myself for freely giving the benefit of doubt.

With every post you make, you disqualify yourself even more as reasonable dialogue partner.

 

Yep that statement of his you quoted says all one needs to know.

Edited November 21, 2022 by dburne

[GOZR]

lets see this one..  this has all the answers we need .. for now..  Very good footage

 

Can we reproduce this ?

Edited November 22, 2022 by GOZR

[norman99]

I’d agree, it’s very good footage, but I have no idea how it “has all the answers we need”?

[GOZR]

1 hour ago, norman99 said:

I’d agree, it’s very good footage, but I have no idea how it “has all the answers we need”?

Frictions.. buffet.. turbulence.. wind resistance, roll speed etc..   Interesting to recreate and see how it is..  

Edited November 22, 2022 by GOZR

[wilbur81]

11 hours ago, GOZR said:

Frictions.. buffet.. turbulence.. wind resistance, roll speed etc..   Interesting to recreate and see how it is..  

 

Wow... that video looks just like DCS! Our humble sim has buffeting, turbulence, wind resistance, and aircraft that roll as well. Thanks for supporting ED.  

[Dragon1-1]

I might add that the other WWII sim is actually terrible at modeling turbulence and other stuff like that. In fact, it doesn't do it at all. I heard the previous installment does do this pretty well, but it's old and doesn't have VR. DCS has wake turbulence and some other turbulence effects, not perfect, of course, but it is something to watch out for.

[RealDCSpilot]

I'm using Sim Shaker with a Jetpad for quite some time now. It get's the information from DCS's telemetry output and i can tell you that there is a lot of shaking and buffeting going on.

[Beirut]

On 11/21/2022 at 4:55 AM, Hiob said:

Geeze.... Sometimes I could kick myself for freely giving the benefit of doubt.

With every post you make, you disqualify yourself even more as reasonable dialogue partner.

 

Why is it always people with only 5 or 10 posts who act like that? But then maybe that answers the question.

 

He is far more interested in getting responses than in flying.

[Germane]

Am 19.11.2022 um 10:10 schrieb Hiob:

I agree on the lack of weather/ air physics. I miss that, too. Would probably a performance issue right now.

The criticism of the controls setup I can’t understand. Where‘s the problem in adjusting the sensivity?

This.
I also hope for a better weather/air simulation. Lets hope they are still working on it.

[Silver_Dragon]

14 hours ago, GOZR said:

lets see this one..  this has all the answers we need .. for now..  Very good footage

 

Can we reproduce this ?

 

The Su-25 on DCS has only a AFM+ no a PFM flight model simulator and many of them has only Simplified. Has better flight model a F/A-18C, F-14B or a F-16C.

[Mars Exulte]

13 hours ago, GOZR said:

Frictions.. buffet.. turbulence.. wind resistance, roll speed etc..   Interesting to recreate and see how it is..  

 

All of which we already have. If you don't like FBW aircraft, don't fly them, that's the ''rails'' you think you're experiencing.

55 minutes ago, RealDCSpilot said:

I'm using Sim Shaker with a Jetpad for quite some time now. It get's the information from DCS's telemetry output and i can tell you that there is a lot of shaking and buffeting going on.

Me, too. It definitely makes it hard to miss when your seat jumps and shakes, but even without that, especially on the deck, aircraft bump and jostle as you move through turbulence. All be aside, he clearly hasn't been paying attention (I noted what appeared to be some form of thermals years ago when passing underneath clouds in the Yak-52 and noting the variometer jumping, although it may not be present now in 2.7-8) In order to miss some of this stuff he has to A. Not pay any attention and B. Be sufficiently ignorant to not recognise it when seeing/experiencing it. Can't help somebody like that, especially with this silly attitude he has, he's not going to be exactly ''open'' to correction. Kinda like that ''aerospace engineer'' who had never heard of differential braking a while back and declared ''Nobody would EVER design something like this''.

[norman99]

Other sims aren't necessarily better at modeling turbulence/buffet etc either.  They're just different.

For instance, I find MSFS turbulence very unrealistic, with an almost pre-programmed like pitch and roll oscillation around the aircraft CG, rather than any actual vertical displacement of the aircraft.

Getting realistic turbulence effects is just really hard to do, especially in consumer software with no physical feedback.

Edited November 22, 2022 by norman99

[Slammin]

I figured it was evil forces at work that make air to air refueling so difficult for me.

[NineLine]

On 11/19/2022 at 4:07 PM, GOZR said:

Well I answer on this one .. I am very ignorant on aircraft weapons as missiles etc.. so i cannot comment on those but regarding the flights yes,.I flew as well early jets and ww2 aircraft in rl.. in RL you want to place as high as you can and you will hit something.. try MiG15 Yak9 etc.  an helmet is not for crashes .. as well as many others and also a simmer since 2 decades and consulted in earlier ones when I had the time Pre kids.  I also founded some fights competitions vs countries in ww2 sim. Now cheating is present when it is possible .. while flying aircraft have blank spots .. alot. In Vr pilots were wanking the aircraft left to right to see where they were going or in a readiness to attack or be attacked in RL you would be so sick as teh Track IR do.. lol.. no you actually move much more in RL the aircraft feel like concrete this is not your desk that you cannot pull on it  .. when you do have the opportunity .. flying you can if you have no honor look on your six lower your head and see through anything which kills the immersion and kills teh surprised attacks.. i know many of you do not fly that way..  Where do you think now IL2 has a locked cockpit option/? So this is why we need the cockpits to have limits as in RL.. now for those who say that they never touch a corner or a canopy in hard maneuver or quick six check and really moving around .. a lot..definitely where flying on a spacious US aircraft.  to fly  or cruise yes i agree your brain limit your neck axis .. but for example in the DCS fw190 try a hard core dogfight.. is more challenging also almost all view in DCS are not setup for you.. so i do correct all , same as IL2 or FS2020.. but less discuss about this.. I am open to it

 

Regarding what I said about DCS been a ship sim.. lol  well it's because the turbulence are and feel like i am sailing in the Mediterranean... lol not Pacific    feels some weird waves or like a very slow slowwww flying Cessna .. but turbulence that I actually love are really important as in RL .. where pedals are very handy if you dont want the tale to go first ..  going through a chain of mountains.. a valley .. etc.. this is serious and for me a pleasure .. I cannot fly anymore ww2 or early jets in DCS because this Number 1 factor is missing so I do not feel that I am flying.. now for that I go into IL2 which the feeling of flying is far greater.. and now FS2020 with some weird thermos..  take a car with stiff suspensions as ww2 fast aircraft and jets is for flyers .. now take the country side road small tiny road and go fast .. that is what turbulence give you.. a list a simulation of it .. in DCS nope it's smooth as silk .. even if you load the turbulence at MAX..  Boat water style ... it is the worse of all sims.. best long ago it was Condor gliders sim.. 

I do like now the clouds ( beside the vibrating and AA horrible effects ) and different altitudes finally we have after 15 years of bugging them .. a lot of goods are coming .. I hope because I do love it anyway.. 

Yes we need to see what is bad and really bug them.. this is why we have goods coming now.. helloooo !  with respect and knowledge .. Virtual pilots should pause and sometime listen to the ones with some good real experiences ..  Imagine DCS with all possible atmospheric physics .. all aircraft will feel so much real .. all.. all fun..  and cockpit locked in the 3D environment corresponding to their aircraft..  RoF.. IL2 GB I know this so well... we all want the same.. some are much much more weapons electronics oriented and some are flights more  dogfights and shooting 100 miles away..  me now .. i love to take an aircraft well ww2 or early jet for me  and fly around alone or with friends before to turn in for the night  The flight is number one before any weapons...  DCSis awesome and horrible for some primary simulator needs.  now I fly IL2 that gives me this feeling.. not DCS  alas

 

BTW:  flying Props with a good precise engine management with all vibrations to give you feed back are so important and good .. they need "TLC"  also air friction on turns  buffets etc are hugely important and sounds with

As for now you can fly DCS with a keyboard..  no joke.  

This is for VR users .

 

Please keep the discussion on DCS World, you may use your real world experiences in the explanations of your issues, but we are not modelling other games, we are modelling real life the best we can. While not everything is perfect, we are striving to do so, will it happen over night? No, will it happen in two weeks? No, but we are working as hard as we can to build the best flight and combat simulation we can. 

If you see issues, please make proper bug reports with evidence if you want to help change things, if you are just burned out there is nothing wrong with taking a break. We plan on being here a very long time. 

Thanks.

[Hiob]

„two weeks“(tm)