waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Rick50]

11 hours ago, rfxcasey said:

While I appreciate individuals the unfortunate truth is almost anyone can be replaced though it might cause delays,...

 

I'd completely  agree with you for 99% of situations. But programming aircraft flight dynamics for DCS ? Programming radar behaviour for DCS ?? Both those positions require people  who not only understand the subject matter to a high degree,  but then to know and successfully code it into DCS, and then fix whatever bugs and unintended side issues...

... meaning, sure, out there is surely someone  else who can professionally fill  those positions... but people with both of those skills and knowledge  is going to be exceedingly rare. Also, those that CAN effectively do that  work, likely already have jobs in this area (or something similarly complex but in another, higher paying career), with projects/aircraft aleady deep  in development.

So while they "could"  be replaced, certainly not impossible, but finding the right candidates would maybe be REALLY difficult.

 

[Sr.]

1 hour ago, Slippa said:

It’s pretty messed up alright. I’m developing refund issues.

Same 

[JB3DG]

13 hours ago, Rick50 said:

 

I'd completely  agree with you for 99% of situations. But programming aircraft flight dynamics for DCS ? Programming radar behaviour for DCS ?? Both those positions require people  who not only understand the subject matter to a high degree,  but then to know and successfully code it into DCS, and then fix whatever bugs and unintended side issues...

... meaning, sure, out there is surely someone  else who can professionally fill  those positions... but people with both of those skills and knowledge  is going to be exceedingly rare. Also, those that CAN effectively do that  work, likely already have jobs in this area (or something similarly complex but in another, higher paying career), with projects/aircraft aleady deep  in development.

So while they "could"  be replaced, certainly not impossible, but finding the right candidates would maybe be REALLY difficult.

 

I had a corporate exec from an IT company ask me what separated the programmers at my job (company that does commercial and entertainment flight simulation software) from theirs.
He was a bit stymied when I asked how many of them could do hydraulics or electrical simulations in code, or understood aerodynamics enough to get a decent flight model. Or could do navigation systems involving kalman filters and Schuler tuning an INS, or knew what doppler notching was in the case of radar. Or were capable of creating a 2D vector graphics engine from scratch using D3D11 or D3D12. It has taken me 14 years to get to where I am now and I am by no means at the top of skill in these areas although I do have some understanding of these fields, some more than others. 

Flight simulation is inherently multi discipline which makes anyone who can do it worth their weight in gold.

[Gman109]

It's been 2 weeks since Razbam's "announcement".  Mods are still saying essentially to stop posting, asking questions, or discussing Razbam's "strike".  How long exactly are customers supposed to wait before getting an update on what's happening?  If both sides haven't been able to "work things out" in 2 weeks, that doesn't exactly bode well for a rapid happy outcome IMO.  So, is it too much to ask to tell us where things are at so we can all get back to buying new EA products with confidence?  This is directed at Razbam, not ED, as Razbam were the ones that went public with this dispute, and the least they can do is not go comms silent after doing so.  It's not fair to their customers.

[SloppyDog]

58 minutes ago, Gman109 said:

It's been 2 weeks since Razbam's "announcement".  Mods are still saying essentially to stop posting, asking questions, or discussing Razbam's "strike".  How long exactly are customers supposed to wait before getting an update on what's happening?  If both sides haven't been able to "work things out" in 2 weeks, that doesn't exactly bode well for a rapid happy outcome IMO.  So, is it too much to ask to tell us where things are at so we can all get back to buying new EA products with confidence?  This is directed at Razbam, not ED, as Razbam were the ones that went public with this dispute, and the least they can do is not go comms silent after doing so.  It's not fair to their customers.

Yep, the point that bothers me the most is this: lack of communication to us, the customers.

I don't really care who stepped on the ball, Razbam or ED. I feel very sorry for the devs who didn't get paid, that's really bad. 

But, in the end, I don't care if it is Razbam or ED that will continue updating our bought and paid for modules, as long as someone took it and continued the development.

But no, not a communication, no definition until now.

I feel like I have an abandonware product on my SSD right now. And that made me really open my eyes to the many underlying problems within ED and DCS that I wasn't willing to see before.   

So, I decided not to fall fro the hype anymore and I'm not buying anything in pre-order or at launch. Only if the product already has been launched, updated, developed and it is mature enough for me to commit to a buy.  And, what surprised me is that lots of players here in the forums and on reddit have expressed the same thought as well. 

 

Edited April 21, 2024 by SloppyDog

[Ignition]

55 minutes ago, Gman109 said:

It's been 2 weeks since Razbam's "announcement".  Mods are still saying essentially to stop posting, asking questions, or discussing Razbam's "strike".  How long exactly are customers supposed to wait before getting an update on what's happening?  If both sides haven't been able to "work things out" in 2 weeks, that doesn't exactly bode well for a rapid happy outcome IMO.  So, is it too much to ask to tell us where things are at so we can all get back to buying new EA products with confidence?  This is directed at Razbam, not ED, as Razbam were the ones that went public with this dispute, and the least they can do is not go comms silent after doing so.  It's not fair to their customers.

My trust is in both ED and Razbam.

ED is the one who brings trust to the game ensuring safety purchases for the modules. If the development of the F-15E stops I'll be very sad but I'll want my money back to restore the trust in ED.

[rfxcasey]

On 4/19/2024 at 10:53 PM, Rick50 said:

 

I'd completely  agree with you for 99% of situations. But programming aircraft flight dynamics for DCS ? Programming radar behaviour for DCS ?? Both those positions require people  who not only understand the subject matter to a high degree,  but then to know and successfully code it into DCS, and then fix whatever bugs and unintended side issues...

... meaning, sure, out there is surely someone  else who can professionally fill  those positions... but people with both of those skills and knowledge  is going to be exceedingly rare. Also, those that CAN effectively do that  work, likely already have jobs in this area (or something similarly complex but in another, higher paying career), with projects/aircraft aleady deep  in development.

So while they "could"  be replaced, certainly not impossible, but finding the right candidates would maybe be REALLY difficult.

 

I honestly don't believe it would be quite as difficult as you think, besides, much of this kind of work will be augmented by, if not completely performed by, AI in the very near future. And I mean VERY near future, if not already.

2 hours ago, SloppyDog said:

Yep, the point that bothers me the most is this: lack of communication to us, the customers.

I don't really care who stepped on the ball, Razbam or ED. I feel very sorry for the devs who didn't get paid, that's really bad. 

But, in the end, I don't care if it is Razbam or ED that will continue updating our bought and paid for modules, as long as someone took it and continued the development.

But no, not a communication, no definition until now.

I feel like I have an abandonware product on my SSD right now. And that made me really open my eyes to the many underlying problems within ED and DCS that I wasn't willing to see before.   

So, I decided not to fall fro the hype anymore and I'm not buying anything in pre-order or at launch. Only if the product already has been launched, updated, developed and it is mature enough for me to commit to a buy.  And, what surprised me is that lots of players here in the forums and on reddit have expressed the same thought as well. 

 

 

Yeah, typically not an early adopter of software and definitely don't historically subscribe to the 'pre-order' model, I usually like to let things mature for a while before getting onboard. Early Access is a bit of a different animal in my opinion especially as its gone with ED in the past. I've never really had a lack of confidence when it came to early access, fully knowing that the product would be lacking features or unfinished, but never considered a potential total death of the module while DCS World still breathed. I did, however, pre-order the F-4 Phantom II, which was quite a bit out of character for me. It is after all, an F-4 Phantom II from Heatblur so take that into consideration.

Edited April 21, 2024 by rfxcasey

[maxTRX]

7 hours ago, rfxcasey said:

I... honestly don't believe it would be quite as difficult as you think, besides, much of this kind of work will be augmented by, if not completely performed by, AI in the very near future. And I mean VERY near future, if not already...

 

It crossed my mind on occasion...  this entire caboodle might already be coded by AI  

[The_GhostRider]

12 hours ago, SloppyDog said:

o, I decided not to fall fro the hype anymore and I'm not buying anything in pre-order or at launch. Only if the product already has been launched, updated, developed and it is mature enough for me to commit to a buy.  And, what surprised me is that lots of players here in the forums and on reddit have expressed the same thought as well. 

I'm in this camp as well, I have removed all of the RB modules for now, no sense wasting the disk space if it's not going to be supported and as for pre-orders, I have nearly every module in the store but I will no longer purchase pre-order modules, just not worth the risk.

[Rudel_chw]

9 minutes ago, The_GhostRider said:

I'm in this camp as well ...

 

Me too, I usually purchase almost every new item that is released for DCS, but after this RB situation I have skipped the Afghanistan map (in spite of its good pricing) and now also skipped on the CH-47.

 

9 minutes ago, The_GhostRider said:

I have removed all of the RB modules for now, no sense wasting the disk space if it's not going to be supported 

 

Well, I wasn't flying any of the RB aircrafts since the last couple of months I have been dedicated to the Viggen, but I do use the South Atlantic Map a lot ... so, until these modules actually stop working, I'm not deleting them yet.

[Flia]

Please ED save at least my loved Strike Eagle from slow death

[Rhinozherous]

As two weeks are over now and not a single word is dropped, I think scambam is gone now.

[zerO_crash]

Synergy:

 

Speculation should be avoided in such instance. It is low to attempt pointing fingers, when the situation is unknown. Further guesstimating, is doing nobody any good. Let's wait and see what comes out of it!

 

With that said, the posture that "continue using your products as before", is obviously a very short-sighted one. We all remember what became of Hawk. Intellectual property rights taken into account, it is never fair to a customer to treat them with "customer agreements" (we never promised anything). I, for one, noticed that in the previous newsletter (12.04.2024), there is a picture of a Mi-24P used as advertising for a new campaign released. The skin on that Mi-24P, is currently not available. I do business, I know my rights. If you wish to slam the "it's all in the customer agreement"-talk, then I will gladly open a legal case for false advertising of a product! I remind, I asked about a position on this, and still haven't recieved an answer. The reason I don't go the legal way, is because I enjoy the work of ED, and always have. Frankly, great company and great people. In a niche industry, however, the key to survival is taking care of your customers.

 

It's perfectly fine that ED doesn't put Razbam modules on hold from sale. They have a business to run - all fair and square. What I do, is question their posture claiming that this is a "private" matter and customers shouldn't worry. When you know what's at stake, you definitely should worry! Those of us who have been here from the start, remember what happened to Hawk! Telling a customer to chose between rolling their DCS-installation back to 1.2 (stoneage) to fly Hawk vs. having access to all the other (newer) modules they bought, is not okay at all! This should not be a either/or.

 

The company, should very clearly inform (especially new) customers about the potential risk that the products might run into (lack of support). This is the concept of "transparency" in business! We don't have any details currently, but that also means that, regardless of plans, ED cannot guarantee the continuation of support for Razbam modules. If they could do it, they would make an official statement avoiding concern! That's why, if anything, during times like these, it's important to not be pre-emptive and too assuming, but at least be informative of the "danger". This, such that someone doesn't shell out for modules that cease working tomorrow. I can guarantee that the community didn't forget the Hawk (I'm nor pointing fingers), we surely won't forget a multitude of other modules stopping to work from the get-go! (If that becomes the case).

 

I am not writing this for myself, but for fresh members and newer customers who might not be as well informed. I personally know what I signed up for. There are however practices, which can damage your reputation beyond repair. I don't mind a plausible appology either, followed by an explanation why modules might not work. What I do mind though, is the mentality of "keeping in the dark"! You have customers, you have an obligation - sentimental most of all.

 

Please be clear, when asked, about you not being able to currently guarantee the longevity of a product, otherwise make a statement about it being covered (positive). In either case, there is a chance to come out of this clean.

 

Thank you!

Edited April 21, 2024 by zerO_crash

[nessuno0505]

4 pages of discussion and not already closed by moderators? That's the real news!

[Ignition]

We don't know if this can happen to any other 3rd party. The risk of buying from 3rd party developers is something to have it in mind.

[Beirut]

I love my DCS, but my wallet is closed until there is clarity. 

[Gunnar81]

3 hours ago, Beirut said:

I love my DCS, but my wallet is closed until there is clarity. 

I wish you all the best come June with the new modules and terrains. Be strong my good man.

[Swiso]

 

 

 

 

[OldFlyer]

17 minutes ago, Swiso said:

 

 

 

 

This ..... concerns me.

[Tom Kazansky]

1 hour ago, Swiso said:

 

 

 

 

It concerns me that somebody hasn't been learning too much over the last few weeks.

[zerO_crash]

6 hours ago, Swiso said:

 

 

 

 

Don't bother posting those. It's an inappropriate way to communiate on the issue within corporate ethics and code of conduct. While ED should be open about the current dangers of buying the Razbam product line, the specifics are strictly ED-Razbam business. Regardless of the situation, Ron handles it wrong. At this point, it becomes a play to aggrevate and pressure ED, by building own narrative and leveraging customers.

 

Let Hoggit deal with drama, while we stick to getting what customers want, and leave everything else to theirs respectively.

[Q3ark]

1 hour ago, zerO_crash said:

Don't bother posting those. It's an inappropriate way to communiate on the issue within corporate ethics and code of conduct. While ED should be open about the current dangers of buying the Razbam product line, the specifics are strictly ED-Razbam business. Regardless of the situation, Ron handles it wrong. At this point, it becomes a play to aggrevate and pressure ED, by building own narrative and leveraging customers.

 

Let Hoggit deal with drama, while we stick to getting what customers want, and leave everything else to theirs respectively.

If a reduction in drama is what you want then it’s down to ED to make a statement, or post some updates regarding what’s going on, their intentions etc. Nobody here is an employee of either company, if they want to speculate in the absence of any official update then that’s up to them. 

[Wacko_ZA]

5 minutes ago, Q3ark said:

If a reduction in drama is what you want then it’s down to ED to make a statement, or post some updates regarding what’s going on, their intentions etc. Nobody here is an employee of either company, if they want to speculate in the absence of any official update then that’s up to them. 

Have you considered that there may be men in suits dealing with this, hence why ED is not making any further statements, perhaps based on the advice of men in said suits?
While the entire razbam team continues their public hissy fits, and it being shared far and wide on the deep dark crevasses of reddit and other places?

Not once has ron or razbam come out, and CLEARLY stated what the EXACT issue is, but vague insinuations etc are everywhere, with their team members having VERY public tantrums, showing them deleting nightly builds, and making comments on discord?

I think the community are WWWAAYYY too fast to come out with the pitchforks for ED in this one.

Why don't razbam just man up, and detail exactly what their gripe is, hell produce some receipts too, rather than play off the uncertainty and lack of clarity surrounding this situation!
instead they are on discord, dropping little things like this:

[Beirut]

9 hours ago, Gunnar81 said:

I wish you all the best come June with the new modules and terrains. Be strong my good man.

 

You're a gent! 

 

I have enough in my Steam wallet for three modules. I'm ready to buy. I'm eager to buy. But someone has to send some positive vibes. Where is the love? 

[Q3ark]

I am not picking sides or placing blame. 

This should have remained private and been resolved in the background, that's on razbam. Now it's out, as the owner of the IP ED is in a position to control the information coming out by making some kind of statement or update, helping set customers minds at ease and putting a stop to the uninformed speculation. That statement released by Nick Grey did nothing but fan the flames. These kind of disputes should be resolved at the lowest level possible, if Nick Grey is getting involved it's looking bad.