waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[eFirehawk]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

I don't blame any of you for wanting more info, but we just don't have it right now and all I can do is say sorry.

Honestly to me this response is in line with the others. Offers no meaningful clarification or reassurance. With that said... I would like to thank you because you're in an impossible situation with this and sitting in the middle of the crossfire. I understand that this is the very best you can do at the moment given the info you have and the politics around it. Safe to say, no one here is jealous of your job position and many thanks for checking in from time to time - many of us who understand how careful you have to be appreciate it.

[Dav IRL]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

ED management is aware of everything, and I try to pass along as much as I can to them as well. The only reason things are silent right now is because there is nothing new to share, we are not going to see blow-by-blow updates on this. This needs to be handled professionally behind closed doors between the two sides. Using Discord or other social media to try and sway people to you or them being right is not professional and it's not fair to anyone, especially our customers. 

As for how we will proceed based on the results of these issues, it's impossible to say right now as well as there are so many variables. Obviously, our goal is to see RAZBAM back to work and everything back to normal. I can understand everyone's fears if that doesn't happen but to give an answer to that we would have to guess at things that could happen and we are not willing to do so right now. 

I know you guys want more, or you want responses to some of the noise around the internet but it's just not professionally sound to do so right now as we work towards a solution. Doing the he said/he said thing only undermines customer trust more than it has already been. I think we would fail customers even more by engaging in such communication. I don't blame any of you for wanting more info, but we just don't have it right now and all I can do is say sorry.  The goals have not changed and the full resolution of these differences is where we want to be. 

Hey NineLine,

I appreciate the post, but ED should clarify its refund policy for this module for all its customers. As I have read on other forums, some customers are receiving refunds while others aren't. For instance, if we wait while others are getting refunded, will we be rejected if the two parties can't figure it out? I am willing to wait for a positive outcome for the simulation, but I believe ED should inform us about our options. I would expect a statement along the lines of "We are doing all we can to rectify this issue as quickly as possible. However, you can get a refund anytime; if the issue ultimately cannot be resolved, we will refund you upon request". I want a positive outcome, I will not request a refund, but please have the respect to treat the forum with transparency and care as we are the end users, disappointed ones at that.

[Maduce]

Just my two cents. It would probably help if ED came out and clarify if they can support RB's products if RB abandons them. I assume not at this point. The next step is for them to explain why this has happened yet again (as far as not being able to support a module if it is abandoned), especially when they stated previously that they had taken action to prevent it from happening again. Finally, they need to put forward a transparent plan to prevent it from happening again, if we could even believe it at this point. All that being said, I don't necessarily blame ED for it happening, just how it has been handled, especially when it has happened with a third party previously and I don't believe ED learned its lesson. In the meantime, their customers suffer, loose out and loose trust. I may revisit an older product for a while. I just want ED to continue to grow and be stable place to invest time and money for enjoyment. Customers have invested a lot of time and money into their products. Not just modules, terrains and campaigns, but computer hardware and peripherals. NIneLine you are between a rock and a hard place and have handle it well. I hope this is resolved soon, best wishes. 

[shinobi61]

and it was said that this already couldnt happen again so asking for clarification shouldnt be an issue at all.... if this does indeed go belly up i know a bunch of people that will just uninstall the sim

[NineLine]

2 hours ago, Dav IRL said:

Hey NineLine,

I appreciate the post, but ED should clarify its refund policy for this module for all its customers. As I have read on other forums, some customers are receiving refunds while others aren't. For instance, if we wait while others are getting refunded, will we be rejected if the two parties can't figure it out? I am willing to wait for a positive outcome for the simulation, but I believe ED should inform us about our options. I would expect a statement along the lines of "We are doing all we can to rectify this issue as quickly as possible. However, you can get a refund anytime; if the issue ultimately cannot be resolved, we will refund you upon request". I want a positive outcome, I will not request a refund, but please have the respect to treat the forum with transparency and care as we are the end users, disappointed ones at that.

Currently, the standard refund policy is in place, as there are no refunds on any products. That said we have always taken each individual request into consideration I have even spoken to some over voice chat and determined a refund makes sense but the majority of requests will be turned down just based on our current rules on this, as well if a refund is granted it will most certainly be in the form of ED Miles. 
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/faq/refund/

Now, what happens if everything goes south? I can't say for sure, I can guess but we would make sure to do our very best to either keep the F-15E in DCS or make it easier to transfer over to another module, etc. Again, don't hold me to anything right now because I do not know what this would all look like, and I am looking at a half-full cup and a good outcome. 

[draconus]

If the module gets broken ED will have to model F-15E themselves

[YoYo]

Problem is still exists, it looks like not solved yet (Todays info):

Edited June 3, 2024 by YoYo

[lee1hy]

Aren’t A2G radar and mapping systems assets of DCS CORE and ED? (Weapons system too?

I don't know why some people keep calling it a "3rd party aircraft". Would a 3rd party aircraft exist without  DCS core API?

Edited June 3, 2024 by lee1hy

[unlikely_spider]

14 minutes ago, lee1hy said:

Aren’t A2G radar and mapping systems assets of DCS CORE and ED? (Weapons system too?

I don't know why some people keep calling it a "3rd party aircraft". Would a 3rd party aircraft exist without  DCS core API?

 

It doesn't matter if it could exist or not - many applications are extensible, and existence of that extensibility does not imply ownership of anything developed using those tools. If a party develops an add-on using an application's API, the add-on doesn't automatically become the property of the original application's company.

The issue in question here is the contractual agreement between Razbam and ED, and none of us here outside of those two parties likely knows anything about that agreement.

[TLTeo]

50 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I can guess but we would make sure to do our very best to either keep the F-15E in DCS or make it easier to transfer over to another module, etc.

Could you comment on other RB modules? I own the Mirage and Farmer, and would not like to see those purchases end up being completely wasted either.

[Blackeye]

37 minutes ago, lee1hy said:

Aren’t A2G radar and mapping systems assets of DCS CORE and ED? (Weapons system too?

I don't know why some people keep calling it a "3rd party aircraft". Would a 3rd party aircraft exist without  DCS core API?

 

The F-15Es A2G radar goes beyond what the ED standard implementation provides and works independently AFAIK.

It's called 3rd party because it is developed by a third party and not ED. Yes, those third parties use an API to integrate with DCS but the module itself is a pretty big chunk of work - think of it as a program written for an operating system or a game written using the Unreal engine. While all of those rely on the API/engine they are still fairly independent.

 

Edited June 3, 2024 by Blackeye

[Silver_Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Blackeye said:

The F-15Es A2G radar goes beyond what the ED standard implementation provides and works independently AFAIK.

It's called 3rd party because it is developed by a third party and not ED. Yes, those third parties use an API to integrate with DCS but the module itself is a pretty big chunk of work - think of it as a program written for an operating system or a game written using the Unreal engine. While all of those rely on the API/engine they are still fairly independent.

The API has the SDK, required to all 3rd parties build propper aircrafts / helos modules on DCS World. Maps require the TDK API. All provided by ED.

[Blackeye]

17 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

The API has the SDK, required to all 3rd parties build propper aircrafts / helos modules on DCS World. Maps require the TDK API. All provided by ED.

So? Opering systems provide SDKs as well and even frameworks. That's pretty much required if you want third parties to properly develop stuff for your platform and not just build some hacks to create limited "mods".

Edited June 3, 2024 by Blackeye

[Wizard_03]

5 hours ago, NineLine said:

I know you guys want more, or you want responses to some of the noise around the internet but it's just not professionally sound to do so right now as we work towards a solution. Doing the he said/he said thing only undermines customer trust more than it has already been. I think we would fail customers even more by engaging in such communication. I don't blame any of you for wanting more info, but we just don't have it right now and all I can do is say sorry.  The goals have not changed and the full resolution of these differences is where we want to be. 

I can understand not wanting to get into the weeds with razbam on the Internet over this issue. Nor do I think it's appropriate to share business disputes like this with customers.

 

But a simple statement from Nick or management to the effect that, whatever happens, ED will take care of all the customers who bought the F-15E even in the worst case scenario. That certainly isn't asking too much. And obviously what that will look like is impossible to determine right now. But a statement that you won't leave us out to dry is all I and many others need to hear. 

 

A simple reassuring statement like that would be Something we can all hang our hats on. Because the whole early access model ED uses is based on customer trust. Trust that the product will get finished sooner or later. If we can't trust that anymore then how can we buy products for DCS without fear that this could happen again. Obviously in an ideal situation the F-15E is completed by razbam and we all put this behind us, but short of that I think ED needs to start restoring trust in the community right now. Rather than wait for this situation to completely erode everyone's trust in both ED and third parties. 

[DaWu]

For how many more months Or years will the story of nothing new to report continue? 

After this many weeks there must have been several meetings with no agreement. Which makes a solution highly unlikely.

i don’t care a lot for the 50€. I care more about the death of my favorite aircraft and I will leave DCS when it’s not continued. I am tired and done with the 18 and there is nothing else I want to fly. I never understood why such an important module was outsourced and not developed by ED themselfs 

[Brk195]

Quote

But a simple statement from Nick or management to the effect that, whatever happens, ED will take care of all the customers who bought the F-15E even in the worst case scenario. That certainly isn't asking too much. And obviously what that will look like is impossible to determine right now. But a statement that you won't leave us out to dry is all I and many others need to hear. 

I’ll add my voice in agreement with this statement right here.

I don’t believe that many people in the community are expecting weekly updates or blow by blows on the matter.

what they want right now is reassurance someone from the higher echelons to come out and say that regardless of the outcome we will have an F-15E to fly in the end.

 

Edited June 4, 2024 by Brk195

[eFirehawk]

5 minutes ago, Brk195 said:

I’ll add my lice in agreement with this statement right here.

I don’t believe that many people in the community are expecting weekly updates or blow by blows on the matter.

what they want right now is reassurance someone from the higher echelons to come out and say that regardless of the outcome we will have an F-15E to fly in the end.

 

To be honest at this point I would be happy if ED management simply said that they are communicating with RB. The RB team is adamant that ED is just downright ignoring them for months and this statement has not been officially denied by ED either. That's the worst blow to my trust in ED so far and nothing reassured me of the opposite. If there are indeed no comms I wonder what kind of game they are playing...

Edited June 4, 2024 by eFirehawk
typo

[upyr1]

On 6/1/2024 at 5:04 AM, draconus said:

If you mean SE it's still offered with EA discount.

What's so special about HB? Their F-14 is not updated for as long as the SE. That they released shiny new toy doesn't mean they are any good at supporting their older modules, still EA.

It would have been nice to have Jester AI

[YoYo]

5 hours ago, DaWu said:

For how many more months Or years will the story of nothing new to report continue? 

After this many weeks there must have been several meetings with no agreement. Which makes a solution highly unlikely.

i don’t care a lot for the 50€. I care more about the death of my favorite aircraft and I will leave DCS when it’s not continued. I am tired and done with the 18 and there is nothing else I want to fly. I never understood why such an important module was outsourced and not developed by ED themselfs 

And MiG-23  who probably died and was supposed to be „2024 - the year of MiG-23”! For me this is the biggest pity considering the small number of Eastern Block planes and copters.

 

Edited June 4, 2024 by YoYo

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

5 hours ago, Brk195 said:

I’ll add my voice in agreement with this statement right here.

I don’t believe that many people in the community are expecting weekly updates or blow by blows on the matter.

what they want right now is reassurance someone from the higher echelons to come out and say that regardless of the outcome we will have an F-15E to fly in the end.

 

 

What's the difference between f15e customers or harrier/m2k/farmers... Customers? 

[Swiso]

10 hours ago, NineLine said:

Now, what happens if everything goes south? I can't say for sure, I can guess but we would make sure to do our very best to either keep the F-15E in DCS or make it easier to transfer over to another module, etc.

@NineLine With that statement you mean that ED will take charge of keep developing the model themselves or give it to another 3rd party developer? And how about the M2000, AV8B ? 

Thanks.

Edited June 4, 2024 by Swiso

[Snappy]

Yes, I would like a statement regarding the Mirage too, since it already has become effectively broken by the last DCS update.The FBW is broken, as is yaw control on the runway, making it unusable and no longer meeting product description/requirements.

[Romandv]

7 часов назад, eFirehawk сказал:

To be honest at this point I would be happy if ED management simply said that they are communicating with RB. The RB team is adamant that ED is just downright ignoring them for months and this statement has not been officially denied by ED either. That's the worst blow to my trust in ED so far and nothing reassured me of the opposite. If there are indeed no comms I wonder what kind of game they are playing...

 

This state of uncertainty plays a cruel trick. The only option I can understand, if it's not a money refund (how they will refund money in Steam I don't understand at all) is a compensation in some other form by replacing it with ED module/map. That's when the wait would be justified, otherwise ED is just wasting users time reducing trust. 

It doesn't matter what the bottom line is with RB, the user should not be cheated in the end.

upd: of course, I'm not talking exclusively about the F15E, but all RB modules. Nobody needs these pumpkins and the fact that they are no longer early access is irrelevant.

 

Edited June 4, 2024 by Romandv

[fragal]

10 hours ago, NineLine said:

Currently, the standard refund policy is in place, as there are no refunds on any products. That said we have always taken each individual request into consideration I have even spoken to some over voice chat and determined a refund makes sense but the majority of requests will be turned down just based on our current rules on this, as well if a refund is granted it will most certainly be in the form of ED Miles. 
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/faq/refund/

Now, what happens if everything goes south? I can't say for sure, I can guess but we would make sure to do our very best to either keep the F-15E in DCS or make it easier to transfer over to another module, etc. Again, don't hold me to anything right now because I do not know what this would all look like, and I am looking at a half-full cup and a good outcome. 

What about the other modules RB isn't just the 15E ? And after this how do I consciously buy other 3rd party modules knowing a similar situation may arise and i lose access to them with no control of that outcome quite frankly this isn't another hawk situation RB is a multi module part of dcs and have been for years.

How do I buy another 3rd party module knowing there's a chance the dev may not get what's owed to him from his and his teams hard work...

Quite frankly there is now an uncertainty attached to dcs where there was none before all of this came to light...This is sad and a rather large let down from a game i've sunk so, so many years into.

 

[YoYo]

Btw. Discord, Yesterday (Notso, so quite well informed).

Edited June 4, 2024 by YoYo