waiting for resolution ED/RAZBAM Situation Info & Discussion

[draconus]

7 minutes ago, Gizmo03 said:

Maybe i'm wrong but this sentence means exactly that he's not willing to give / sell the source code to any other developer in order to keep the modules in the game in case they will leave DCS.

Yes, and it's their right, but why would they leave DCS? They want to make an agreement and continue the work... and make money like any business would do in such a development niche.

[Beirut]

2 hours ago, David CB said:

Thanks. Refunding the Mudhen already.

 

I'm flying it all the time. 

[falcon_120]

Same, one of my favorite jets in DCS.

[Gizmo03]

vor einer Stunde schrieb draconus:

Yes, and it's their right, but why would they leave DCS?

Because they don't get paid?? Taking off the modules from the stores is not a step in the direction to stay.
 

vor einer Stunde schrieb draconus:

They want to make an agreement and continue the work...

I would appreciate if they find an agreement. But what if not at all, or the solution is not to their favor?

vor einer Stunde schrieb draconus:

and make money like any business would do in such a development niche.

By taking off their products from the store??
Yes i know - it seems like they don't receive the money from the sold modules at the moment but if they find an agreement they should get it afterwards.

But anyway..... we will see what happens.....

Edited Tuesday at 02:09 PM by Gizmo03

[Jayhawk1971]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Gizmo03:

"Our development pipeline, including all source code has never been - and will never be - released to any distributor or third party."

Maybe i'm wrong but this sentence means exactly that he's not willing to give / sell the source code to any other developer in order to keep the modules in the game in case they will leave DCS.

The time may come when he doesn't really have a choice, if he wants to recoup at least some of the money invested. 

Considering the market for combat flight simulations is currently rather modest, Razbam really doesn't have too many options. So, hypothetically, if there would be no agreement with ED, RZ may find himself in a position where he may have to chose between getting nothing at all, or selling the IPs for a reasonable sum to another party. Doesn't necessarily have to be ED. He could even negotiate to retain the rights for his IPs for use in other sims/ platforms that may pop up in the future.

Strictly speaking as a customer, I would have absolutely no problem with, say, Heatblur buying the F-15E (license, IP and source code) from Razbam, maybe even hiring the same team that made the module, and finishing it. Bonus points for adding their Jester AI to the backseat (and crew chief interaction while we're at it).

This may sound a bit harsh, but, honestly, my "allegiance" is not to a company where I am an indirect customer, but to the product I've purchased, that I would like to be able to enjoy to its fullest (marketed) potential.

Edited Tuesday at 09:47 PM by Jayhawk1971
typo

[Esac_mirmidon]

"At the moment" is 18 months unpaid for any sale.

Enlight me, Who can survive as a company or a person for 18 months being unpaid.

Whos willing to keep working unpaid for 18 months? I have a nice business where i live for who wants to work for free

Edited Tuesday at 02:16 PM by Esac_mirmidon

[SteelPig]

19 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

"At the moment" is 18 months unpaid for any sale.

Enlight me, Who can survive as a company or a person for 18 months being unpaid.

Whos willing to keep working unpaid for 18 months? I have a nice business where i live for who wants to work for free

80% of the economy all the time. Such delays in payment are the norm, not the exception. 

[SharpeXB]

34 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

"At the moment" is 18 months unpaid for any sale.

Enlight me, Who can survive as a company or a person for 18 months being unpaid.

Whos willing to keep working unpaid for 18 months? I have a nice business where i live for who wants to work for free

Yes that fact amazes me. What it reveals is they aren’t a “company” per se but a group of hobbyists for whom this really isn’t their “day job”. That despite being one of the major Third Party devs for DCS. Even such sales are probably very small. I imagine this is the case for all the Devs really. 

Edited Tuesday at 02:48 PM by SharpeXB

[Gizmo03]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb Esac_mirmidon:

"At the moment" is 18 months unpaid for any sale.

Enlight me, Who can survive as a company or a person for 18 months being unpaid.

Whos willing to keep working unpaid for 18 months? I have a nice business where i live for who wants to work for free

But that's what i mean when i ask "what if they don't find an agreement at all?"
They either have to focus on other platforms or to shut down the business. But anyway i cannot imagine that they will continue developing DCS content without payment. Additionally he now said he will not release the source code to anyone else. And if they don't continue (in the worst case) and they will not give the source code to anyone else - what will be the result?

And i think no one is willing to keep working unpaid for 18 months. That's why they stopped working already 12 months ago, or did i miss some updates to their modules?

[SharpeXB]

20 minutes ago, Gizmo03 said:

And i think no one is willing to keep working unpaid for 18 months.

Well, yeah. This must be “moonlighting” or “side-hustle” employment for all these people, not full-time primary income. That would also explain why it takes 8 years to finish a DCS module.

Edited Tuesday at 03:09 PM by SharpeXB

[aaronwhite]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

Yes, and it's their right, but why would they leave DCS? They want to make an agreement and continue the work... and make money like any business would do in such a development niche.

My assumption would be that they want to move their stuff to something like MSFS or maybe another combat flight sim that's in development. Personally, I think either would be a bit of an odd choice, but it's not my place to tell them how to run a company.

It's certainly frustrating as a fan of the Harrier to read, because Razbam has made some great modules. But ED has smartly made it so that companies have to provide these things for this very reason we're seeing right now. If the third party developer stops development for whatever reasons, the ED players are left in a bind where they have a product that may work for the time being, but likely will slowly devolve until there's just game breaking bugs that require it to just be removed from the game entirely. While we don't know the whole legal argument going on behind the scenes, if Razbam isn't willing the share their source code for any reason at all, then it's just kind of a frustrating admission from them that they don't intend to develop for DCS. I don't see a world where ED wants to break this logical agreement they have with developers that allows them to continue development of modules or at the very least keeping them updated in the game if the developer finds themselves wanting to switch to another sim entirely or if a magical vortex suddenly opens and sucks up all the developers. 

[Hammer1-1]

5 hours ago, lee1hy said:

As mentioned over and over. SA map is made by Razbam.

South Atlantic yes is made by Razbam...but their team is under ORBX leadership, not Razbams. Basically its the same people building KOLA.

[Horns]

1 hour ago, Gizmo03 said:

But that's what i mean when i ask "what if they don't find an agreement at all?"
They either have to focus on other platforms or to shut down the business. But anyway i cannot imagine that they will continue developing DCS content without payment. Additionally he now said he will not release the source code to anyone else. And if they don't continue (in the worst case) and they will not give the source code to anyone else - what will be the result?

And i think no one is willing to keep working unpaid for 18 months. That's why they stopped working already 12 months ago, or did i miss some updates to their modules?

I wouldn't read too much into what was said about not sharing the source code at any point. All that statement does is what RZ has been trying to do throughout: present the outcome as a binary choice between getting Razbam back to developing as before or losing all of their modules forever to maximize leverage. The statement can easily be walked back and one could even play the hero with it: 'I never wanted to part with these, but I didn't want to take them away from our dear customers either'.

I'm not saying he's lying or even that he won't follow through: I'm just pointing out that making that statement doesn't actually tell us what he will or won't ultimately do: it's just the smart play to maintain the best hand.

[deeleyer]

4 hours ago, aaronwhite said:

My assumption would be that they want to move their stuff to something like MSFS or maybe another combat flight sim that's in development. Personally, I think either would be a bit of an odd choice, but it's not my place to tell them how to run a company.

Dangerous movement if true. Sim are a very small world, and customers for one sim can be the same customers for another sim.

It's like Carenado, I never bought anything from them on MSFS because how they abandoned their 'unfinished' modules for Xplane.

 

Edited Tuesday at 07:44 PM by deeleyer

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, aaronwhite said:

My assumption would be that they want to move their stuff to something like MSFS or maybe another combat flight sim that's in development. Personally, I think either would be a bit of an odd choice, but it's not my place to tell them how to run a company.

Ive been suspecting this since Razbam and Microprose announced a potential partnership late last year...so much so that Im willing to bet money on it.

[Maduce]

1 hour ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Ive been suspecting this since Razbam and Microprose announced a potential partnership late last year...so much so that Im willing to bet money on it.

I hear (can't confirm) that deal between RB and MP has been scuttled. 

[Convoy]

My guess is Zambrano doesn't like how much of "his" modules income goes to ED/Steam. I refuse to believe he didn't get paid AT ALL for any F-15E sales. That would be a very easy thing for a lawyer to win. 

Ron acts like they're the best developer out there, and that he should be held to a higher regard. And we all know they aren't. 

The sob story posts only do more harm. ED has been professional through all this by keeping it private, and none of us know the whole truth. 

By stopping development, the radar kill switch, the removal of product, Ron is trying to force ED's hand, which is another sign of guilt. And in the end, all it hurts are the RAZBAM consumers. 

Edited Tuesday at 06:59 PM by Convoy

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

19 minutes ago, Convoy said:

My guess is Zambrano doesn't like how much of "his" modules income goes to ED/Steam. I refuse to believe he didn't get paid AT ALL for any F-15E sales. That would be a very easy thing for a lawyer to win. 

Ron acts like they're the best developer out there, and that he should be held to a higher regard. And we all know they aren't. 

The sob story posts only do more harm. ED has been professional through all this by keeping it private, and none of us know the whole truth. 

By stopping development, the radar kill switch, the removal of product, Ron is trying to force ED's hand, which is another sign of guilt. And in the end, all it hurts are the RAZBAM consumers. 

I have to agree. It's been made clear who is the bad faith actor in this individual situation. I started to get that notion when this first broke and I asked around. I didn't spam developers with the typical social media/imageboard brained stupidity, I asked like a human being.

And I got direct answers to the best of their ability to answer.

If this, indeed, were ED withholding payment for no good reason, this would've been over and done with a lot sooner. I understand that they made a lot of people's favorite toy and these individuals act as if DCS exists just for the Mudhen, but the fact of the matter is that both Razbam's leadership is very much at fault, they know that they are, they've been poisoning the well to try and win it in the court of public opinion because internet dorks sure do love a moral crusade, and this is not the first time we have seen these kinds of antics from Zambrano.

[scommander2]

27 minutes ago, Convoy said:

all it hurts are the RAZBAM consumers. 

Indeed, RB reputation has been destroyed since RB has stopped the F-15E development.  I won't buy any RB modules anymore regardless they are the "best" developers. 

What business they are going to make at the end in the future without customers?! 

Edited Tuesday at 07:26 PM by scommander2

[YoYo]

The modules have just disappeared from sale on Steam. If someone didn't buy it on Steam today, they won't.

[Esac_mirmidon]

The same as without payments.

Is exactly the same thing. No costumers, no money.

Every sale for the last 18 months, no money.

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, Maduce said:

I hear (can't confirm) that deal between RB and MP has been scuttled. 

I gotta ask...where did you hear that from?

[Tank50us]

1 hour ago, Maduce said:

I hear (can't confirm) that deal between RB and MP has been scuttled. 

If true... I can't possibly imagine why.... (Obvious sarcasm)

[NineLine]

It's probably best to not discuss anything between RB and other companies here. 

Also as a reminder, everyone be nice to each other, and be nice to RB and if you don't mind even us. 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

2 minutes ago, NineLine said:

 if you don't mind even us. 

No.

Prepare to get prank calls and pizzas.