DCS World 1.5 and 2 Discussion

[Grim_Smiles]

Hello all, I have a decision to make shortly, either a Hotas Warthog, or a GTX 970, can't do both, so if I can run DCS1 with mostly high settings at about 60fps am I likely to see a significant frame rate drop with DCS2 ? I know it's probably speculation at the minute, but you guy's know alot more about this stuff than I do ! Thanks in advance.

 

If you can currently run DCS on high with 60fps I think you should be fine with what you have for DCS World 2. A good idea would be to take a look at the specs Wags has for his computer in his profile sig and compare your current gear to that. I'm assuming he's recorded his vids on his own computer while running the alpha and it seems to run just fine with what he has.

[SkateZilla]

EDGE is DX11 Only, I seriously doubt ED would go with a propriety API and cut off the nVidia users.

Mantle is great and all, but from my experience it is still pretty buggy, and would likely cause more problems thab its worth.

 

DX12's goal is to get close to or match Direct Access APIs,

 

Last test I saw had AMD gaining 340%-400% over DX 11, and nVidia around 200%.

 

DX12 is Windows X Only, which would force everyone in the DCS community to upgrade to WinX.

 

MS will also be only releasing DX12 SDKs to qualified Developers.

As DX12 will be very sensitive to commands.

 

Basically DX11 will be for Developers that dont mind the overhead of the API in exchange for easier programming (Lol, I know, define easier, right?).

 

DX12's reduced overhead comes at the cost of sensitivity to commands, where DX11 would filter out or adjust commands at an API level to render items correctly, DX12 wont.

 

I'll see if I can find the MS interview that better explains this.

 

Would DCS benefit from DX12, likely.

 

DX12' Max simultaneous Draw call limit is ~600k, compared to DX9's ~500 and DX 10's ~60K

[paidapinga]

 

DX12's goal is to get close to or match Direct Access APIs,

 

Last test I saw had AMD gaining 340%-400% over DX 11, and nVidia around 200%.

 

 

AMD mundle is future , the funeral Nvidia is starting.

 

I was lucky to bet on the winning horse :)

Edited February 11, 2015 by paidapinga

[genbrien]

AMD mundle is future , the funeral Nvidia is starting.

 

I was lucky to bet on the winning horse :)

 

I had a R9 290(clocked 290x)

 

Sold it for a GTX 980 and I'm glad I did.

Mantle is not the future

[Scoggs]

DX12 is Windows X Only, which would force everyone in the DCS community to upgrade to WinX.

 

 

 

DX12's reduced overhead comes at the cost of sensitivity to commands, where DX11 would filter out or adjust commands at an API level to render items correctly, DX12 wont.

 

I'll see if I can find the MS interview that better explains this.

 

Would DCS benefit from DX12, likely.

 

DX12' Max simultaneous Draw call limit is ~600k, compared to DX9's ~500 and DX 10's ~60K

 

Just like to point out the upgrade to Windows 10 is a free one for the first year after release. So that shouldn't be much of an issue. And apparently current cards will be able to support DX12 in some capacity.

 

And I would love to see the interview, I'm really interested in this kind of stuff

 

And since you are a pretty knowledgeable person about this stuff. Are draw calls a major issue in the current engine?

 

AMD mundle is future , the funeral Nvidia is starting.

I understand there is a language thing going on but your assumption is all kinds of wrong. And at the same time, why would it be important to you at all? Are you a major stockholder or employee of AMD or something?

[KaspeR32]

 

And since you are a pretty knowledgeable person about this stuff. Are draw calls a major issue in the current engine?

 

 

Yeah I'm curious about that also. DX9 is really limited to ~500 draw calls, while DX11 is ~60,000?!?

 

That's quite the jump.

[7rooper]

AMD mundle is future , the funeral Nvidia is starting.

 

I was lucky to bet on the winning horse :)

 

I'm afraid not. Back in the 90's and early 2000s there were, besides DirectX, many APIs like S3Metal, OpenGL Full & Mini ICD and Software renderer but no one is used these days. DirectX has been evolving through many years and it is universal. Propietary APIs like Mantle are never a good idea. Plus, it is plagued for bugs and without a huge users base it won't be able to iron out those problems.

[SkateZilla]

Yeah I'm curious about that also. DX9 is really limited to ~500 draw calls, while DX11 is ~60,000?!?

 

That's quite the jump.

 

 

 

In DX9, More Draw Calls = More CPU Usage, More Draw calls above ~500 the more the overhead increases.

 

Theres a hard coded limit then there's a soft limit that when reached anything above that will cause CPU overhead to further increase.

 

I have to see what the "limit" is for DX11, as 60k is DX10 I belelieve.

(but that number seems high considering DX10 doesnt solve the overhead issues)

 

 

Developers can group Draw calls, but that work around causes other issues.

 

DX9 is also a Serial Process meaning it wasnt designed to spread its work across multiple threads to process and feed GPUs the commands efficiently when it gets bogged down. DX11/12 are parallel processes, so the API will spread its work to more threads to feed commands to GPUs more efficiently.

 

So say you're flying a stripped mission with no AI over an area with no scenery objects (buildings, bridges etc).

 

Your FPS will be High along with your GPU usage.

 

Enter an Area with a lot of objects being rendered, and watch your GPU usage fall along with your FPS.

 

You would normally think, more objects rendered would equal more GPU usage.

 

But when object calls and other things start to clog up the DX9 processing thread, it doesnt process and issue GPU commands fast enough, so your GPU is likely chillin waiting for commands from DX9's API. Your GPU will only render or do what DX's API tells it to do, so when the API is clogged, the GPU usage drops.

 

I've explained it repeatedly before, and likely 2 or 3 times in this thread.

 

As for Mantle, it'll disapear much like Glide did. Theres no point in a API that limits customers to one brand.

Mantle's purpose is to pressure MS and OpenGL to offer low level API's Mision Accomplished.

 

I'm afraid not. Back in the 90's and early 2000s there were, besides DirectX, many APIs like S3Metal, OpenGL Full & Mini ICD and Software renderer but no one is used these days. DirectX has been evolving through many years and it is universal. Propietary APIs like Mantle are never a good idea. Plus, it is plagued for bugs and without a huge users base it won't be able to iron out those problems.

 

3DFx Glide.

 

 

AMD mundle is future , the funeral Nvidia is starting.

 

I was lucky to bet on the winning horse :)

 

AMD has a larger gains simply because the DX9,10 and 11 performance was in the pits.

 

Ie, nVidia had a 25+FPS avg in old DX APIs, and peak of 65 in DX12 rendering the same scene.

in that same scene AMD had an Avg of 8 Fps in legacy DX APIs and a peak of 52.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That being said,

I foresee ClipMapping in DCS2.0 among other things helping to increase FPS,

not sure if the current caucaus map has distance LODs,

Edited February 11, 2015 by SkateZilla

[FlyingHighAU]

With Windows 10 being a free ujpgrade to all Windows 8 users, then we'll probably see DX12 capable machines spread a lot quicker than Win 7 / DX11. However of course, the hardware might take a bit longer!

[hannibal]

i been watching fighter jet go pro videos...

i am wondering if DCS World 2 / EDGE will bring vapor Vortices on the leading edge flaps / where the fuselage meets the wings... (instead of the already existing wing tips)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_vortices#mediaviewer/File:FA-18C_vapor_LEX_and_wingtip_1.jpg

 

[rrohde]

As a side note - amazing too see how realistic the DCS wingtip vortices look compared to the real picture above... wow.

[Scoggs]

In DX9 ... [Much Text Omitted] distance LODs,

Thanks for the info! On a side note do you think ED will incorporate DX11.3 as it is still in development or just 11.1? And will it be hard to come back and upgrade?

However of course, the hardware might take a bit longer!

 

At least according to AnandTech most newer graphics cards will be Dx12 compliant "In short, among AMD and NVIDIA their latest products are up and running in WDDM 2.0, but not on all of their earlier products" (AnandTech Article) although they do go on to say "While all of the above listed video cards will support the DirectX 12 low-level API, only the very newest video cards will support FL 12_0"

Edited February 12, 2015 by Scoggs

[Cibit]

When I was looking at the stills of Vegas that Wags posted some time ago I thought the colours where a little "cartoony" this video gives a great look at Vegas at night and the screenies are pretty spot on

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/watch-a-time-lapse-of-the-air-forces-most-intense-comba-1541291395

 

Can't find the pics I was thinking off for comparison

[PFunk1606688187]

Power Glove is awesome with anything.

[VTJS17_Fire]

@Wags/ED: Could we get some screenshots or a short video of some destroyed and/ or exploding objects in EDGE? Im interessted in, how EDGE handles such effects. :)

 

 

Kind regards,

Fire

[Witchking]

@Wags/ED: Could we get some screenshots or a short video of some destroyed and/ or exploding objects in EDGE? Im interessted in, how EDGE handles such effects. :)

 

 

Kind regards,

Fire

 

I think they are still in progress...or else we would have seen some shown off during the bunch of EDGE videos posted by Wags. I think they were carefully shot to show only properly implemented working things. Just like the past concerns with cloud models, I think they are just trying to avoid backlash if they show off WIP effects atleast until it is acceptable for them.

[Why485]

@Wags/ED: Could we get some screenshots or a short video of some destroyed and/ or exploding objects in EDGE? Im interessted in, how EDGE handles such effects. :)

 

 

Kind regards,

Fire

 

The latest MiG-15 video where he shoots off the tail of an F-86 is the best we've got so far.

 

irSxoHeEDP4

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

^^yeah and that seems identical with the effects we already have...also i believe that we already have the new effects...not long ago, they added new fire effects of burning planes.and i think thats what was planned with edge...otherwise it wouldnt make much sense to create these new effects, while there are already other "edge effects" in the works...

of course everything is and stays work in progress and we might see constant improvements/adjustments of said effects, but i have the feeling that we should not expect too much changes in this regard with the release of edge.the same effects will probably still look better just because of the improved graphics engine...

[PFunk1606688187]

I just want them to redo lighting so that I can actually see another aircraft easily at night when it has its lights on.

[T_A]

I`v been watching the gunnery video again and just love how well the F-86 is seen in contrast to the desert ground.

[will-]

new video?

[*Rage*]

Yes!

[kam]

It's...........beautiful :thumbup:

[Nirvi]

Oh my god, this looks insane!

[GeorgeLKMT]

new video?

 

That's amazing! Videos like that make me want to start flying helis.