waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Pipe]

7 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

Running a business is not that simple and whenever money is involved, it is always a big deal!

Just not seen as a BIG DEAL for the people who have spent said money?

[Jackjack171]

4 hours ago, Pipe said:

Just not seen as a BIG DEAL for the people who have spent said money?

I'm sure it is a big deal for all involved parties. That doesn't change the fact! In business or any transaction of money and funds, there are always risk. We accept those risk as consumers, whether we like it or not. 

[NineLine]

5 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

where can one find said thread?

You are in it. But there is nothing new, but we are not ignoring or hiding from it, we just don't have anything to share. It's an important issue that needs to be resolved, we are still hopeful it will be. 

[lee1hy]

Buyers should be warned this product does not have an update

It's still just a rumor and we don't know why it's ED no paid and it hasn't been resolved for months.  All Razbam products must be warning.

Edited May 19, 2024 by lee1hy

[Esac_mirmidon]

The harm has been done, no matter what solution could come.

Several talented employees from Razbam had quited. Among them core designers with special relevance.

The damage to a future development restart is insane, both in time and reputation. My personal thinking about what could happen is irrelevant, but is very, very pessimistic.

[nessuno0505]

ED shouldn't have accepted RB as a third party, that was the mistake.

[draconus]

On 5/18/2024 at 12:42 AM, rwbishUP said:

Why is this undeveloped module still available for purchase in the store?

Because it's a great module.

On 5/18/2024 at 2:45 AM, DaWu said:

ED you really think I will buy anything again? 

Oh, yes you will.

3 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

ED shouldn't have accepted RB as a third party, that was the mistake.

How easy to say now. If people only knew things before they happen.

Edited May 20, 2024 by draconus

[eFirehawk]

52 minutes ago, draconus said:

Because it's a great module.

 

Great. So no 'buyers beware' that the module isn't maintained atm and will be worsening after update for several months(best case scenario) just because 'it's great (at the moment)'? Nice mindset. Lucky customers.

[freehand]

All I wish to know is a simple question from ED please will my RB modules still work in there current state this time next year if things are not resolved ? 

[Gizmo03]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb freehand:

All I wish to know is a simple question from ED please will my RB modules still work in there current state this time next year if things are not resolved ? 

Well.... i would say that question might be a good summary of all the 18 pages of this thread and guess what..... still no answer.

[primus_TR]

Don't pay your employees and blame it on your client, and then let the end users, who bear the brunt, be your noble champions. That don't look like a too difficult way to run a business lol

[SkateZilla]

Considering how public the issue has become, at this point Disclaimer is pretty much a slap in the face, and not needed.

Pretty much anyone that's involved enough in DCS to hit buy on any DCS Module, knows the rumors, ramblings and future assumptions already.

It's beating a dead horse at this point constantly asking for a disclaimer, most of those asking for said disclaimer have already purchased the module, so what does a disclaimer do for you? absolutely nothing.

There are better ways to spend your time other than eating/selling the fruit of the poisonous tree, speculating, and spreading rumors.

[nessuno0505]

5 ore fa, freehand ha scritto:

All I wish to know is a simple question from ED please will my RB modules still work in there current state this time next year if things are not resolved ? 

5 ore fa, Gizmo03 ha scritto:

Well.... i would say that question might be a good summary of all the 18 pages of this thread and guess what..... still no answer.

You really need an answer? The answer is, obviously, no. The modules will degrade over time and eventually stop working until (if ever?) the issue is sorted. This is sure as the sun raise up in the morning.

[draconus]

12 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

It's beating a dead horse at this point constantly asking for a disclaimer, most of those asking for said disclaimer have already purchased the module, so what does a disclaimer do for you? absolutely nothing.

You're totally right and tbh there's nothing in the E-shop description about future sw suites, systems and weapons that Razbam was supposed to deliver*. Only the manual, missions and camapaign that's mostly @baltic_dragon's job. Otoh bug fixing is expected and should be taken care of asap.

*This is of course not something we forget easily - it was part of our buying decision even if it isn't for new customers.

[av8orDave]

On 5/19/2024 at 12:57 PM, lee1hy said:

Buyers should be warned this product does not have an update

It's still just a rumor and we don't know why it's ED no paid and it hasn't been resolved for months.  All Razbam products must be warning.

 

I agree. The situation highlights an interesting conundrum, however. The nature of these early-access modules is that a number of features promised have no timeline associated with them when the module goes into early-access sale; as such, even if development and updates are slow, or if the developer stops working on the module entirely, even if for an extended period of time, it isn't really behind schedule because one was never created or communicated. 

This is something I really have to factor in before buying early-access products in the future. Even though the price of the module is largely inconsequential for me, I'd still rather not shell out a few bucks for something that really may never been finished as it was advertised.

All that to say yes, I believe they should put an indicator on the e-store indicating that development on the module is paused, even if temporarily.

[McGraw]

Probably noted but the icon doesn't say WIP etc.

[Checkmate]

No matter what happens I have learned that life is just to short to worry about things you can't control. So while I still have a chance I wanted to say thank you to Razbam for helping to advance this hobby by moving the bar with each aircraft. It is companies like yourself, Heatblur and ED that has given us ultra realistic, study level aircraft that ten years ago I could never imagine on a PC. I do hope that one day you get the oppurtunity to look back upon your work and realize how great an affect it had on this community. In the end no ones remembers how you got there, only the final product.  So go make a difference and finish her. 

[eFirehawk]

3 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

Considering how public the issue has become, at this point Disclaimer is pretty much a slap in the face, and not needed.

Pretty much anyone that's involved enough in DCS to hit buy on any DCS Module, knows the rumors, ramblings and future assumptions already.

It's beating a dead horse at this point constantly asking for a disclaimer, most of those asking for said disclaimer have already purchased the module, so what does a disclaimer do for you? absolutely nothing.

There are better ways to spend your time other than eating/selling the fruit of the poisonous tree, speculating, and spreading rumors.

Good point of view, however, I partly disagree. When it comes to people who are actually diving deep into DCS or those like us who have been around for a while and are familiar with the ins and outs of this sim, yes, we know and are relatively well informed about any purchase we might make. However, there are many players who are either new or too 'casual' so to speak to know that the $60 they are about to spend are for a product that stopped in its tracks and will degrade for some time, and possibly for a long time or forever. I would even suspect that the people who actually master the modules are not the majority of the buyers.

So, in my case $60 was never a big deal, so much so that until this fiasco I purchased most DCS modules even if I didn't even touch some of them as means to show gratitude and support for ED (and yes, despite all the *ahem* peculiar things about ED, I am incredibly grateful that DCS even exists, even with all its flaws, since this kind of sim is a juice that ain't worth the squeeze for pretty much any company. Look around for DCS alternatives...) but, for some, $60 is actually quite a significant amount, and letting those who have to work harder to afford what the module costs without being clear (or expecting them to somehow just know) about the potential short lifespan of the module is not right in my opinion.

 

 

[Ignition]

3 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

Considering how public the issue has become, at this point Disclaimer is pretty much a slap in the face, and not needed.

Pretty much anyone that's involved enough in DCS to hit buy on any DCS Module, knows the rumors, ramblings and future assumptions already.

It's beating a dead horse at this point constantly asking for a disclaimer, most of those asking for said disclaimer have already purchased the module, so what does a disclaimer do for you? absolutely nothing.

There are better ways to spend your time other than eating/selling the fruit of the poisonous tree, speculating, and spreading rumors.

And what if Razbam didn't tell us about the problem as ED says it should have been?

You assume most of the people who play DCS are involved enough to know the status of all the 3rd parties.

[SkateZilla]

On 5/20/2024 at 6:31 PM, Ignition said:

And what if Razbam didn't tell us about the problem as ED says it should have been?

You assume most of the people who play DCS are involved enough to know the status of all the 3rd parties.

If I told you how many contract disputes I see weekly with my employer (*not ED / flight sim related), you'd lose your mind.

Contractual issues are part of doing business with 3rd parties, there's no such thing as a Business w/ 3rd Parties that does not have contractual disputes for one reason or another.

RB publicizing their dispute, was their decision, the terms, at least to the public, are speculation. The motive behind going public is also speculation, so there's no need to comment on the motive or timing, or why. It's Public now, and the outcome hasn't changed because it's public, if anything the only thing being public has done, is stir the pot, and make it harder for both sides to come to an agreement..

 

To quote Xena.
"Two war lords cannot make a peace treaty if their troops are fighting and killing each other in the camp outside of their tent."

Edited May 22, 2024 by SkateZilla

[freehand]

4 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

You really need an answer? The answer is, obviously, no. The modules will degrade over time and eventually stop working until (if ever?) the issue is sorted. This is sure as the sun raise up in the morning.

I do not want an answer from you or anyone else but from ED themselves some thing along the lines of " Sorry Mr Freehand but due to the nature of 3rd party modules the answer is no but thanks for your support and passion." 

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, freehand said:

I do not want an answer from you or anyone else but from ED themselves some thing along the lines of " Sorry Mr Freehand but due to the nature of 3rd party modules the answer is no but thanks for your support and passion." 

Unfortunately, the only good answer you are entitled to is the "research before you buy" answer. Ive been very reluctant to buy any Razbam products because A) Ive bought from them in the past, and B) Ive followed them throughout the years. People in the know call that doing their due diligence. Ive known for a very long time to be very weary about who I buy from ,and yes that includes anyone that have a reputation for not supporting their product..and although that hasnt stopped me from buying their modules, I knew something like this might happen - and that goes with any 3rd party module makers. Thats a risk YOU take when you click the buy button. I can tell you some stories about Razbam, but these are my own findings over the last 15+ years Ive used their products. I saw something like this coming a mile away; I just didnt see it coming so late in the game.

Edited May 21, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[Gizmo03]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb nessuno0505:

You really need an answer? The answer is, obviously, no. The modules will degrade over time and eventually stop working until (if ever?) the issue is sorted. This is sure as the sun raise up in the morning.

Are you working for ED or RB?? You can‘t answer, you just can assume. And this thread is full of - mostly negative - assumptions and speculations but there is no official answer and there will be no answer as long as there are no results. Asking again and again doesn‘t give you an answer sooner. It‘s like a throttle lever at the full forward position. Pushing it harder doesn‘ give you more thrust. That‘s what i wanted to say. I‘m not expecting any answer at all just because people are asking this question (since more than 1.5 month btw).

[Art-J]

To be fair, modules not getting a single fix or feature for months or more than a year are not unusual even on ED side (Yak-52, Combined Arms, ex-Belsimtek ones, Supercarrier etc.) so one never knows what and if is really "maintained" in DCS ecosystem and such disclaimer cannot and will not be shown on e-shop website unless the company literally goes belly up like VEAO. As long as RAZBAM stays afloat and in some form of business relationship with ED, their products will most likely remain available for purchase even if their effective development and maintenance is questionable after lead systems programmer leaving the company. Still, that will just put Eagle on the same level as Yak for example, so not eligible for refunds (EULA or not) as it is not "abandoned" in theory, just stalled in further development.

Edited May 21, 2024 by Art-J

[Goofy12]

Quite simple, Nineline wrote “we are still hopeful it will be resolved”. This quite simply indicates you are not 100% sure it will be resolved; fact. Therefor there should be a disclaimer.