Modified files in CoreMods......MODS are no longer supported?!

[Harker]

I guess there's definitely a miscommunication.

We 100% do support modding and plan to support it in foreseeable future.

 

However, we do not support changing the stock game files.

In some cases we even prevent this, when it is related to copy protection.

In most cases we just don't guarantee that mods which alter the install folder will continue to work after an update.

 

All user mods should go into Saved Games folder.

If some mods are not currently possible this way, please, tell us what do you want to achieve with your mod and we will consider adding the support.

 

So, if you have any specific requests, please submit them in a structured way.

 

Thank you.

Thanks for reaching out, it's appreciated. In summary, I think everyone would be satisfied if it was possible to overwrite and supplement any file in the installation directory, with files placed in Saved Games, under a mirror file structure. Include the possibility of adding new files and textures. Furthermore, maintain access to the original files present in the installation directory, because we need to know the file names and the file contents, as well as the textures. Otherwise it's impossible to know what to modify and how.

That would enable modding to work as it did before, but without changing anything in the installation directory.

[Shrike88]

Thanks for reaching out, it's appreciated. In summary, I think everyone would be satisfied if it was possible to overwrite and supplement any file in the installation directory, with files placed in Saved Games, under a mirror file structure. Include the possibility of adding new files and textures. Furthermore, maintain access to the original files present in the installation directory, because we need to know the file names and the file contents, as well as the textures. Otherwise it's impossible to know what to modify and how.

That would enable modding to work as it did before, but without changing anything in the installation directory.

 

+1 this

[Wabacku]

I guess there's definitely a miscommunication.

We 100% do support modding and plan to support it in foreseeable future.

 

However, we do not support changing the stock game files.

In some cases we even prevent this, when it is related to copy protection.

In most cases we just don't guarantee that mods which alter the install folder will continue to work after an update.

 

All user mods should go into Saved Games folder.

If some mods are not currently possible this way, please, tell us what do you want to achieve with your mod and we will consider adding the support.

 

So, if you have any specific requests, please submit them in a structured way.

 

Thank you.

 

I don't want to sound rude but let me voice my opinion. ED may say this; however, their actions do not support it at all. Frankly, the community is beginning to get really tired of it, and most talented people have their eyes set on new development prospects, something a little more open and seemingly honest (wont mention what, but im sure everyone can guess). The writing has been on the wall for years.

 

I realize most of this thread applies to editing coremods aircraft. I am not sure what made ED go this way with protecting those assets (seems very strict and directly against modding), but you cannot even create custom payload objects, or fix existing problems through mods that are low on EDs priority list even if they don't change the aircraft itself. But this goes way beyond coremods as many of you have said.

 

ED has never provided documentation to modders. There is very little on the ED wiki from a decade ago. This has lead the modding community to figure out (through trial and error) how to use ED functions/tools/structures etc and even very smart workarounds to achieve basic objectives in mods. Consistently, ED has even gone back to purposely break those workarounds and limit those functions/tools/structures and not include those changes in the changelog so that modders are clueless. This is just inexcusable. Now, I don't support changing game files, but rather creating completely custom mods.

 

Sure, they should be able to keep all the third party things they want private... But, going out of their way to not provide any documentation and not give very basic information to even moderately complex tools and hints to the modding community is mischievous. There is a lot of talent that ED is simply choosing to not support, what a shame. Many great things could come from being open and better supporting talented modders, and even making third part status more realistic to obtain, or just opening it completely...

 

Even talking to some third party developers its becoming hard to stay profitable enough to continue meaningful development, part of the reason being the lack of help, documentation, and access to create core game assets. And the other reason most of us can guess...

Edited May 22, 2020 by Wabacku

[DayGlow]

Your making a big accusations with the tone and wording of your post. You seem to be making the claim that they are purposely and actively blocking modding. You're flat out accusing ED of being dishonest and purposely breaking mods. Those are some bold claims.

[SUNTSAG]

Hi All,

 

Firstly I am not accusing anyone of anything just pointing out simple facts from a reasonable modders perspective. I look at the elements I would like to see active in DCS and try to implement them as a stopgap until ED get around to finishing or creating them. I then share with the community based on the premise that If I would like to see those elements working to a degree, then others may too.

 

I will provide you with evidence now, of two mods that have seemingly been directly targeted by ED and been prevented from working.

 

1. The first was a deck crew mod I produced where the animated characters in a basic state at that time, which was made available due to many requests from the community.

 

I kind of understand the ED reaction to this to a degree (with a DLC in the pipeline), which was to remove all the elements the mod utilised in the very next patch. Now we all know that ED never works that quickly on anything (LOL) so it was indeed directly targeted.

 

I produced that mod back in January 2019 a full sixteen months before the super carrier was eventually released. ED could have left it alone and disabled it prior to the big launch and made a statement to that fact. The community could have benefited from the mod for quite some time and perhaps it's use would have made more community members consider buying the DLC in the long run, wanting the additional functionality it provides. . (It's an alternative viewpoint).Please also note that I did not complain when this action was taken.

 

2. Recently I produced links to a number of mods which are nothing to do with aircraft directly, one of which now does not work. The SCUD-B launch option has been disabled following the latest patch.

 

Again this action has been prompt and seemingly quite purposeful, particularly following my review of why it has suddenly stopped working. I don't understand why this action has been taken as all I did was make it function until ED get around to finishing it. Perhaps it was a mistake on their part, as they do happen but as you can see I am a tad sceptical , with good reason I feel. Again I am not complaining I am simply providing some facts.

 

Who knows perhaps the SCUD-B is forming part of a DLC for the Persian Gulf map and others but there is nothing in the development roadmap to suggest this. I can fix this one to a degree but I am asking myself, is it worth the effort?

 

For me as it currently stands, the ED statement does not match their actions and let's not forget the great mod purge not so long ago.

 

I understand any software house wishing to protect their intellectual property rights but these actions have nothing to do with that and it seems to be a form of misdirection or fake news if you will.

 

Finally I don't usually contribute to discussions like these, I simply get on with what I enjoy doing and adapt to suit. Unfortunately on this occasion, I felt the need to chip in for the sake of balance.

[fagulha]

Hi All,

 

Firstly I am not accusing anyone of anything just pointing out simple facts from a reasonable modders perspective. I look at the elements I would like to see active in DCS and try to implement them as a stopgap until ED get around to finishing or creating them. I then share with the community based on the premise that If I would like to see those elements working to a degree, then others may too.

 

I will provide you with evidence now, of two mods that have seemingly been directly targeted by ED and been prevented from working.

 

1. The first was a deck crew mod I produced where the animated characters in a basic state at that time, which was made available due to many requests from the community.

 

I kind of understand the ED reaction to this to a degree (with a DLC in the pipeline), which was to remove all the elements the mod utilised in the very next patch. Now we all know that ED never works that quickly on anything (LOL) so it was indeed directly targeted.

 

I produced that mod back in January 2019 a full sixteen months before the super carrier was eventually released. ED could have left it alone and disabled it prior to the big launch and made a statement to that fact. The community could have benefited from the mod for quite some time and perhaps it's use would have made more community members consider buying the DLC in the long run, wanting the additional functionality it provides. . (It's an alternative viewpoint).Please also note that I did not complain when this action was taken.

 

2. Recently I produced links to a number of mods which are nothing to do with aircraft directly, one of which now does not work. The SCUD-B launch option has been disabled following the latest patch.

 

Again this action has been prompt and seemingly quite purposeful, particularly following my review of why it has suddenly stopped working. I don't understand why this action has been taken as all I did was make it function until ED get around to finishing it. Perhaps it was a mistake on their part, as they do happen but as you can see I am a tad sceptical , with good reason I feel. Again I am not complaining I am simply providing some facts.

 

Who knows perhaps the SCUD-B is forming part of a DLC for the Persian Gulf map and others but there is nothing in the development roadmap to suggest this. I can fix this one to a degree but I am asking myself, is it worth the effort?

 

For me as it currently stands, the ED statement does not match their actions and let's not forget the great mod purge not so long ago.

 

I understand any software house wishing to protect their intellectual property rights but these actions have nothing to do with that and it seems to be a form of misdirection or fake news if you will.

 

Finally I don't usually contribute to discussions like these, I simply get on with what I enjoy doing and adapt to suit. Unfortunately on this occasion, I felt the need to chip in for the sake of balance.

 

First of all, i love your mods/work. I used for one day your deck crew at the time until get disabled in next day patch. Thank you for everything so far.

 

As an example stated in my post here, i was using the Blue Angels mod just because it gives an option to stow the boarding ladder. It adds immersion to my experience. Now it dont work, and even if i know (which i dont) to change the lua file ED cut me away that possibility. If ED did have that simple option in the Hornet, like in some modules, i did not need to use a mod for open the ladder in the first place.

 

Best regards,

F.

[Phantom_Mark]

THIS ^^^

 

SUNTSAG > plugging the holes of development, filling the voids of missed promises and carefree attitude to never finishing anything.....

 

We appreciate you mate, disgusted to actually see the full scope of targeted measures.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Phantom_Mark

[c0ff]

Can't comment tech details of specific mods ATM, but, to my knowledge, *we never ever targeted any user mods*.

In the carrier crew mod case, most probably it was broken by the change, required to implement SC the way it is. Frankly speaking, I never knew there was a user mod like this at all. We can't keep track of everything users create.

 

Yes, there's lack of documentation, not enough communication, .. many issues, really.

DCS is an extremely complex piece of software and you will be surprised how small the core DCS team is.

 

Other sims may have better docs, better support for usermods, but they allow much less. These are related matters - the narrower your APIs are, the easier it is to document and support them, but the lesser (is it English language still?) they allow to implement. One will never be able to implement warfare in MSFS or XPlane.

[Jafergon]

Is there any chance you would allow the possibility of having mods in the Saved Games folder affecting Coremods lua files? (at the user risk of breaking stuff)

 

As I said, personally I run a few mods to tweak stuff to my personal taste like intensity of strobes and other visual elements that have stopped working and I don't have an alternative.

 

 

Thanks!

[Nero.ger]

Can't comment tech details of specific mods ATM, but, to my knowledge, *we never ever targeted any user mods*.

In the carrier crew mod case, most probably it was broken by the change, required to implement SC the way it is. Frankly speaking, I never knew there was a user mod like this at all. We can't keep track of everything users create.

 

Yes, there's lack of documentation, not enough communication, .. many issues, really.

DCS is an extremely complex piece of software and you will be surprised how small the core DCS team is.

 

Other sims may have better docs, better support for usermods, but they allow much less. These are related matters - the narrower your APIs are, the easier it is to document and support them, but the lesser (is it English language still?) they allow to implement. One will never be able to implement warfare in MSFS or XPlane.

 

For the love of god then stop locking LUA files from now on!

[Nightstorm]

Thanks for reaching out, it's appreciated. In summary, I think everyone would be satisfied if it was possible to overwrite and supplement any file in the installation directory, with files placed in Saved Games, under a mirror file structure. Include the possibility of adding new files and textures. Furthermore, maintain access to the original files present in the installation directory, because we need to know the file names and the file contents, as well as the textures. Otherwise it's impossible to know what to modify and how.

That would enable modding to work as it did before, but without changing anything in the installation directory.

 

Yes exactly. This would be the ideal solution.

[Blinde]

I guess soon they stop the community from using own skins on planes :(

 

If only the the core game itself would be so good as the game with community modded (improved textures and especially sounds what are quite poor in many modules). This current way they are doing isn't really encouraging to buy this expensive bugged and unfinished crap they are selling.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Blinde

[Shahdoh]

Blinde,

No, that will not happen, because skins do not change the core aspect of the aircraft and its capabilities/performance.

 

In fact, it was Liveries that was one of the main reasons why ED created the saved games area for that type of modifications. It was the beginning of ED's attempts and working with the modding community while trying to protect their own core files.

[NineLine]

For the love of god then stop locking LUA files from now on!

 

Please read what he has said in this thread, and have a proper discussion about it, tell him what you need as a modder, and he will look about adding the functionality to Saved Games. But please do not fill this thread with noise.

 

Thanks

[Phantom_Mark]

In an ideal world DCS wouldn't need mods deeper than the savegame folder in the first place......

 

I mean the question surely has to be asked if one person can sit and make a quick mod to a couple of files to add functionality to things why can't you just adopt that if your not prepared to do it yourselves (or don't have the time) ?? Scud launcher for one great example ?

 

A mod to get the boarding ladder working on the F18....again, something so simple, but why not adopt the mod if you don't want to do it yourself ? are you too proud, or is it a case that the mod doesn't raise and lower the ladder to your standards ?

 

I am just picking on two examples here I appreciate, and a massive dose of generalising, and of course I understand there is many deeper layers to the question, but for some stuff maybe you could embrace worthy core improvements if you guys haven't got time to do it yourself ? ED as a company seem to be juggling far too many balls these days, maybe some select mods along the way are worthy ?

 

At the rate of development we currently have to the core engine many of us will be dead before all the basic core stuff is in .

[Linx]

Please make it possible to modify CoreMods via Saved Games folder.

[FoxDelta]

mods are as long essential for me in DCS as long:

 

a usable native VR night vision is missing (with the possibility to have a look at instruments below the goggles)

 

a color saturation slider is missing (lefunestes MOD provides)

 

VR performance is not managable via native settings (VR performance mod)

 

 

innovation is often done or driven by Modders! start integrating the most used/requested ones and dont blockade improvements, my suggestion

 

 

 

 

beside all skins and object mods, which are still working

Edited May 22, 2020 by FoxDelta

[Baldrick33]

I mean the question surely has to be asked if one person can sit and make a quick mod to a couple of files to add functionality to things why can't you just adopt that if your not prepared to do it yourselves (or don't have the time) ?? Scud launcher for one great example ?

I would imagine because from a change and release management perspective it could be an unmitigated disaster. Code would need to adopted, documented, understood, regression tested with everything else it may possibly impact and the prospect of an ever growing pile of spaghetti code. I would believe it is hard enough with internal teams and approved third parties without opening it up to all and sundry IMHO.

[Wabacku]

Can't comment tech details of specific mods ATM, but, to my knowledge, *we never ever targeted any user mods*.

In the carrier crew mod case, most probably it was broken by the change, required to implement SC the way it is. Frankly speaking, I never knew there was a user mod like this at all. We can't keep track of everything users create.

 

Yes, there's lack of documentation, not enough communication, .. many issues, really.

DCS is an extremely complex piece of software and you will be surprised how small the core DCS team is.

 

Other sims may have better docs, better support for usermods, but they allow much less. These are related matters - the narrower your APIs are, the easier it is to document and support them, but the lesser (is it English language still?) they allow to implement. One will never be able to implement warfare in MSFS or XPlane.

 

This simply isn't true c0ff... The only API given is the EFM, which lacks many many functions to produce a meaningful module, and almost no documentation. Other sims offer plenty of open APIs or at least a realistic way to obtain them, and they have much more use than what everyday modders get. The way DCS is now, it is not a realistic means of creating anything meaningful to obtain third party status. Look at the MB339 for instance. Great mod, better than some modules frankly, that was denied.

[Wabacku]

Please read what he has said in this thread, and have a proper discussion about it, tell him what you need as a modder, and he will look about adding the functionality to Saved Games. But please do not fill this thread with noise.

 

Thanks

 

Again I know I seem rude, so I hope you allow this discussion to stay despite what I say.

 

We have requested things we need as modders in the past to no avail... He told you what he wants, to stop locking lua files... This is a proper discussion in my book, albeit not as nice as you would like. But lets face it, we have been asking for things for a decade now.

[VGlusica]

I have to second Wabacku here, Nero.ger is putting forward an entirely legitimate request "stop locking lua files." I believe this to be a straightforward and to the point request. It is most certainly not "noise." Since we had this all along it should be easy to implement. I will repeat the request on my own behalf, what we need is for ED to stop locking lua files. If ED feels that this is not possible, then implement functionality to edit CoreMod files through Save Game folder.

Edited May 22, 2020 by VGlusica
Missing quotation mark.

[Phantom_Mark]

I would imagine because from a change and release management perspective it could be an unmitigated disaster. Code would need to adopted, documented, understood, regression tested with everything else it may possibly impact and the prospect of an ever growing pile of spaghetti code. I would believe it is hard enough with internal teams and approved third parties without opening it up to all and sundry IMHO.

 

For sure, and I tried to add the caveat of understanding that life isn't so simple, but I think for the case of the boarding ladder for example (and other super simple but quality of game changing mods).......a simple thing that does exactly what it says on the tin could easily be absorbed into the base code.

[crazyeddie]

'Noise' gets heard, silence gets ignored. As a long time modder who has been around this game since the prehistoric Falcon days I would love to be able to mod CoreMod lua's in the Saved Games folder. I accept its your game to do with as you please but I do not think this an unreasonable request.

 

We love your game - please try to remember we are on your side when you consider these requests.

[berk.kp]

Let me tell why I would modify my coremods. My mods mainly consists of fixes, I have a mod to fix misaligned weapons on pylons on the M2000C an AV-8B, I have mods to add certain weapons to planes like the C-101 or the F-5E, or to allow to add empty pylons or remove pylons (M2000C and L-39). So why should that not be allowed? It's just some simple tweaks for myself.

 

Also, SkateZilla's F-5E wingtip tank mod modifies coremod files.

 

So I hope this gets recognized and ED will allow modification of such files.

[NineLine]

Again I know I seem rude, so I hope you allow this discussion to stay despite what I say.

 

We have requested things we need as modders in the past to no avail... He told you what he wants, to stop locking lua files... This is a proper discussion in my book, albeit not as nice as you would like. But lets face it, we have been asking for things for a decade now.

 

Be nice about it, and you will get more attention, c0ff is listening to you all right now, appreciate that now, if you want to be grumpy about the past, then we get nowhere. He is asking how to better support modding, even admitting it needs to be better, work with, not against.

 

What do you guys need in the Saved games folder to better support your mods.

Edited May 22, 2020 by NineLine